The current state of DR.Comm

[JuveEy]

@ superevil i dont like "give vouchers full power" suggestion simply cuz vouching staff changes almost from week to week (additions or loses w/e). you just cant let a new staff do what ever they want to.

@stu i rly like you post, but at the end (skill part), its kinda idyllic as you said. sry to say this, but its total non sense.. 80% of total low skillers wouldnt even bother to learn something, they would just reserve heroes they find fun (and not easier) to play with. not to mention that they dont take tips in friendly way, but they are used to get flamed and cant see the difference if u advice or tell him to do sth.. he'd just "flame" back. one of the total lowskillers i like is wc3, he improved ALOT. he is still below mid level but what i like about him is that he never complain, he does whatever you ask him to do. he cant play alot of heroes properly, but the ones he practiced - he became solid player. tho i would support his unvouch cuz of ENORMOUS disc %. i dont wanna name anyone else... but some internal thread about skill should rly be urged.. players avoid to play AGAINST them same as WITH them in team.. they just leave game.. i cought myself doing same thing in few occasions.

[Are.You.Ready-]

Although I am not very active anymore, I'll try to explain my point of view.

First of all, I don't know what you seek when you come in dota rank games, but I don't come here neither to make friends nor to chat with people. I come here to have fun while playing my favorite game. I don't like when people are chatting more than they play (ingame) but of course, I like when interactions are centered around the game (discussions after a game for example, or exchanging tips or strategies, things like that).

Since interactions like these don't happen very often, I recall far more often people that gave me a negative feeling, than people that gave me a positive feeling. In fact, there are only a few people that I like here, I am neutral toward the vast majority, and there is a significant number that I don't like. This leads me to the conclusion (in my case) that "bad" people are more harmful than "good" people are helpful. Hence it is more important to get rid of them than to try to attract "good" people.

A solution could be to have to possibility to give "-1"s to people with a comment explaining why. Only vouchers and admins could have access to this information and take appropriate decisions when someone had too many "-1". It should also solve the issue of people who put a "negative atmosphere" in games but still without going over the rules, as previously mentioned.

About skill level, I agree with the fact that extremely bad people should not be accepted here. For example, nothing prevent a total beginner to have access to dr.com. I think we all agree that to know the heroes and the items (how to pick to some extent), last hit deny, notions of carry support gankers, warding are expected. What is important, also, is that people who are really bad, have to improve. Otherwise this leads to the "wc3 case", nobody wants to be in a game with him, because there is no fun playing a game if you have 99% chances to win and even more if you have 99% chances to lose. And I disagree with JuveEy, to me, wc3 isn't improving at all. But I know he can be almost decent if you put him in the right conditions with the right hero (meaning, when you are captain, which I don't like much when it is cm), he even was godlike once in a game I played with him. He has good manners indeed, but he is very bad most of the time and he isn't noticeably improving. This is a good example of someone who should be unvouched for too low skill. This is not a matter of manners AND very low skill.

In the other way around, I feel like people who have nice skills but borderline manners are a little bit "protected". Maybe this is only an impression but people should not be allowed to flame or harass more because they are better. It should be even harsher for them, I think, because they have more credibility towards other players, I guess.

Finally, about my own experience, again. When I joined this community, I had only played public before. My overall manners were fine, but sometimes I was too much on the "negative side" of things. For example, I was seeing only others' mistakes and not mine, things like that. Then, I started to focus more on me and my actions, and that's how you can have fun even when your team is crushed by the opponent one. I think vouchers, moderators and admins and even players have an important role of making new players aware of this (that is, not necessarily making unvouch requests at the first possibility, but telling them what's wrong with their behavior), creating a good atmosphere and being an example for others.

[Cnacnel]

Oh gosh. I just realized why eurobattle dr community was better than RGC dr community. x) While the number of players (Ebnet>RGC) was theoretically higher.
And even though all of you are partially right (me as well in previous post), you are heading in the wrong way. Maybe it's because you haven't played here for such a long time.
Thanks hellspawn for WoW example, and stu for your point on WoW example being similar to our unvouch system (which isn't true). It made me realise what we lost with introduction of RGC.

P.S.: But I will say it in admin forum only. :P I just can't say it in public.

[marcvs]

Time has passed. People have changed and left. Get over OLD DotaRank.

And one more thing.There were shitty games and shitty players in the old days.

You (we) only played Tyr's CM's 24/7 and didn't always see that.

So you got two choices: stop whining, or host your own games with people you know and respect.

That is what !host command is for.

Considering skill requirements: Low skilled people should be unvouched only if their intentionally ruin game.

If you want skilled games, try some other league.
I don't plan unvouching someone for not getting 20m dagger

[Whitebeard]

This has always been a problem with communities like dotarank, DCE and the likes. Trying to create a fun, relaxing gaming experience only works when you have a really low number of players. Actually such a place is most successful when the players all know eachother and the number is so low that the community could die from not having any games from one day to another.

PFFF, the thing is not about knowing all in Channel.
There will never be relaxing atmosphere as long as you put noobs and good palyers in same game and rank it. there will always be hate.
The time you are talking about wasnt only the time where everybody knew everybody, it was also the time of getting points for just playing until end, no matter win or lose....

think about it

PS: Im not intervering in this manner discussion, just wanted to show why there is sooo much hate.

[nF.Hellspawn]

Well I�ll mostly just respond to Stu! as I feel that is where the most hate and opposite thinking is coming from.
It�s quite obvious to me that you�ve never really liked me, or any of my opinions and are holding some kind of grudge against me. Why is that so I do not know but so be it. What I ask from you however is not to make my words lose power right after I say them by telling me I contradict myself. I do not, I did in the first place before I finished the text but I deleted so much that was incorrect / contradiction. I got a small list of points to make sure I keep to the things I want to say and I do not see anything wrong. If you want to see (hardly useful):

Dota = urge to win --> community = need for fun
Lost game != Lost time
Manners? --> IRL ? Why
Hence selected number of ppl = community and/or league, fulfill same needs
Number of ppl proportional to manners in what way
Case of GD, how removing 80% of ppl brought back 60% new great ppl !
Situational loss of control must be taken into account
WoW HC case from few days ago in HoR
WoW�s randomness into a community! Events, talkative members that want to have fun and also �work� /stress ? How ?
2 groups of ppl after a game ! W / L � CUT DOWN, familiarize with other group
Strict rules = Bad mood, no. no. Good atm though.
Admins: Keep their cool, have fun, have authority. Rogers ftw
Leadrship � AUDIENCE not for manipulating or letting go
Juveey�s low skill point = good � discuss
Only for ppl who don�t want to get better
Types of behaviour that are inappropriate � and how
Flame & blame ? Mocking Leaving and other types of ruining ?

Another thing- you keep saying that what I said is wrong. They�re my opinions, my views. They�re not meant to be right or wrong, they�re there for you all to discuss them and to either agree with or disagree. You can�t simply say what I said is untrue and leave it at that, gief explanation kind sir. If you don�t agree with someone�s opinions, don�t do it, but you�re expected to respect them. I do not agree with your views on a lot of things but I respect your ideas, I expect the same from you.

__________
So:
You�re saying that teams play separately and hate other teams and keep to themselves. Getting rid of that is the whole point, I�ve said it maybe 5 times in the post, getting the community together, out of their closed borders which only open up for people they know very well. <-- Yes, idyllic, read on.

Next you go to deny my point/suggestion about lowering the amount of unmannered people to increase the number of mannered people. Straight away you say it�s not true? How do you feel sure enough to do that, I had a very similar case in which this tactic worked to near perfection but I�m not that sure of it in this case either, again it�s a suggestion. I can�t say it�s true (nor have I !) and you can�t simply say I�m wrong.
My points are idyllic indeed, do note that the point of this �drama� I started is finding out how to fix the situation meaning I�m here to give my views on how to fix the situation, whether they be idyllic or not, they�re there to be discussed, that�s the point of ideas.

You said �Everyone will feel the urge to complain or even flame�. That, in my opinion, is a completely wrong statement. Each person is unique and doesn�t act the same way. People under a certain bar will complain and flame in a certain situation, people above it won�t if the situation in the community is good. Again, mind the fact that everyone loses their cool sometimes.

You say that people won�t listen if the others in his team are acting nicely and he�s being a moron. Like you said, some people won�t- that�s true but those people need to leave. Most people however will realize they�re not funny/interesting with their flaming and WILL stop.
However, in the next line you say that at that moment they will be forced by the rules to stop. But not by people who remind them of the rules themselves ? How�s that for contradiction.

With the "I hate you all but I can�t say anything because the big bad admins will punish me for saying what I want." you�re escaping my point. If someone is lying they�re happy then that�s a problem already. Like I said somewhere else, if they�re quiet because they might get banned they�re not welcome in the first place. Such people can�t be found like this cause they�ll just quietly accept what they don�t like.
Then you say harsh rules will lead to nice games, if people follow them blindly, won�t they be unhappy and join the said group of people ?

Last point tru dat.

All in all, your points are good, but cut down on the hate and insta-�I�m right� situations.



My apologies for another wall of text, I had a lot of points to cover, will be better next time.

[afrikankuningas]

imo remove the points so ppl cant farm stats

[nF.Hellspawn]

@afrikan

I suggested this a while back, I think it's a great idea.

Keep them in pub ofc but remove from the community.

[LaserKraft]

I havent read everything in this thread (what a wall of text is this post above me o_o) but for me the answer is very simple. I think the rules on the voucher/moderator side are too strict or whatever. I think it happens to all of us vouchers that we are playing a game with someone who has a really bad attitude but doesn't really break any rules and therefor he doesn't get unvouched. Maybe later they end up breaking some minor rules and get 3 day timebans or whatever but in the meantime they ruin the fun atmosphere (to some extent) in every game they play. I know it seems kind of scary to let vouchers unvouch people when they want to, but for me it seems to be the only way to solve this.

although im kinda inactive lately i think thats the way to go. If the admins/vouchers see some1 who has a bad attitude and spreads bad mood with blaming and other harrasment they should have a talk with him directly and try to figure out if hes mature enough for community or not. becoz imo thats the real problem dr.comm is facing, immaturity. u simply cant rate maturity by some guidelines or rules, its always subjective and so it must be treated. An immature kiddo can behave very bad and still not cross the line to become unvouchworthy. All power to the admins so they can make drastic measures. imo this is the only way internet communities can work.

[Phi]

Wow, MFW, you got unvouched? A good day for DR.

Don't think so much about permanently unvouching retards, just do it, what good is a two week ban if after that time the same idiot is here again?

Seems sombody took my advice seriously, very good. Just don't revouch him and all will be fine. I would have a few more names from the top of my head, but this one was really necessary.

[niGhT-TrAin]

Nice contribution mfw.
Back to topic, I didnt read all but i agree with that rank system is not good for DR.community because you are more or less supposed to know people level in a community and it is not a league so no need for a rank system.
I also think RGC need more admins as there are more players, in the past there was almost one admin in every game who could teach DR spirit. You can't expect people to get in DR spirit just by reading rules on forum.

[nF.Hellspawn]

There goes the thread

[Flutschi]

There goes the thread

Ye sorry for that, but some ppl just dont know better..


And next one who spams inhere, has just won a timeout!

[Cnacnel]

Ye sorry for that, but some ppl just dont know better..


And next one who spams inhere, has just won a timeout!

Everything has already been said.

[nF.Hellspawn]

Everything has been said, nothing has been discussed and even more importantly, no one did anything. So I decided to start posting the unv requests I have waiting, to start purging. Besides, havo still wants to reply but has no time yet I guess.

[Phi]

The problem for the staffies are the rules I think. Everybody is trying to follow them by the book, because if he does not the other people involved in the staff will not hesitate to demote him. The thing is, when it's about manners (YOU ARE NOT A MANNERED PERSON JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T FLAME) there is no real book you can refer to, it's mostly situational and mixed in with feelings. You have to read between the lines to understand and there is a threat of admin-abuse tied to this. That's why I would love to see the staffies to grow some balls, I mean, seriously, just unvouch people without a chance to ever come back. A community must have borders on the outside to define itself as one and as long as you are not getting things done, because you are afraid of some retard posting things on the forums.

It is, in my eyes, absolutely acceptable, if an admin says "I watched you play and your behaviour and you're not fit for this community, therefor, you get a permanent unvouch.". It's useless to constantly check and wait for an asshole to loose control so you can ban him for 2 weeks and have to put up with him after that again, doing the same thing.

Bottom line:

Manners were allways regarded the most precious thing in DotArank. Think about what these means.

[nF.Hellspawn]

^
Such a great post really, I've mentioned it in my post earlier but only slightly.

The biggest problem are the people that aren't doing something unvouchable (though they're switching to the domain of people that ARE doing something unvouchable more and more every day) because you KNOW they do not belong in the community but can't get them out, you're just waiting till they do something. It's something that appears IRL all the time. How many times have people not taken defensive actions and that cost them so much. For example, something from nearby, there was a dangerous road that people drove on all the time and EVERYONE knew that it's only a matter of time before someone gets hurt but no one did anything about it. And now 4 people died. Back to the relatively small situation we have here, they are the people who are, as I just discussed with someone "ticking bombs" really and will explode at any time or will explode the moment they see a flamer in the team, they'll immediately join them.

Now it's absolutely understandable that checking replays and seeing someone is in a bad mood and because of that classifying them as potential flamers (which they very well might be) is nigh impossible for admins but effort must be made to determine the bombs. They bring such a bad feeling to the air.

Going around searching for these people ( which you might actually say I'm doing ) feels somehow wrong, yet feel like you're seeking justice, fixing the problem. It's really a matter of where proactive help ends and Death Note style purging of the wicked beggins. And that's really a thin line whose place is hard to determine. This might be hard to understand completely if you haven't watched Death Note, if you have watched you'll know what I'm saying, if you haven't watched it then wtf.

[Cnacnel]

I liked Kira.

[nF.Hellspawn]

I loved Light.

This is kinda spammish ? :P

[Wendek]

The concept was pretty nice, but the actual character of Light isn't very charismatic, nor interesting. He's just an ego-tripping teenager with super-powers.
N, or even the "female" Shinigami (whose name I forgot, it was years ago after all and some anime struck me much more) are way better in every aspect.

But I think this isn't on-topic.

Edit : When saying 'N', I obviously meant 'L'.