noobs at Dotarank

[sertuki]

hello everyone.
in this topic i want to talk about noobs.Nowadays there are a lot of noobs at DotaRank.for example i played 3 games with guy who finished 0-12,0-10,2-12.it is hard to play with him(cuz he feed ppl ) and against him(not intresting,u havent own progress).I think gms should be more strick in banning noobs.
Maybe we should have smth like testgame?!
Thank you

[Sirian]

This is a friendly community, being new to the game is NO reason for a ban. Intentual gameruining is bannable but that does not apply to this case if you dont elaborate on his play/provide replays etc. If you play with someone like this and you know it beforehand you can balance teams in the lobby. Also during the game tell him what to do and try to teach him the basics.

[sertuki]

yes but friendly doesnt mean a lot of noobs. and rogers wrote that ppl who playing too bad should be banned for 3 month for improve his/her skills.Now it is rly hard to take a good game i mean with good players.Whole day i couldnt play good game( for example rd mode first 2 guys picked void bh instead of es and than feed).It is a pity.
And about teaching.for example cm mode and unknown ppl(new at dr) playing support.after picks whole team said that lich(for example) buy chick than crow wards asap.BUT he started with boots and tango.how do u like that?

[Spasmolyt]

There is an important distinction to make: Is it a noob or is it simply a newbie?
Everybody was a newbie once, and moreover so, for every game they played.
Be friendly to newbies, tell them what to buy, tell them how to play, tell them where to place wards. If they communicate and actually put the stuff they're told into action, everything will be fine. They will remember Dotarank as a friendly community where they could learn how to play DotA properly without being flamed in every game they join.
If they refuse to communicate, tell you plainly that you don't know how to play and they know everything better although they obviously have no idea, if they show general destructive, uncooperative, selfish behaviour, try to tell them anyway, and if it doesn't help at all, report them so we can sort them out.

[Fluffy]

i agree with u that being new is not banable and its good this way as spasmolyt said.
but since the community is growing really fast, is there no way to get some different skill level games. i dont mean the ih games from tyr and the others(they are balanced most of the time:-) ) just the ones where u sign. its getting worse and worse (few newbies there, then some guys speaking in their own languages all the time, bad manner etc) and most of the people just wait for the ih games.
well therefor the new pointsystem should be completed, is there any approximate timing when this will be the case.
Fluffy

[oa2000]

i dont have a problem playing with low skilled players as long as they are nice. what i do have a problem is joining a cm game where the captain gets outpicked goes 3-12 with jugger after 20 mins and spams everyone in team to ff. it just ruins the game for the team.

[sertuki]

Be friendly to newbies, tell them what to buy

As i said early at cm mode, for example ,where i was cap,i said 10X times and team said to Lich(for example) : buy chick than wards asap and crow.BUT he started with boots and tango.how can i teach this guy?!i already said few times what to buy,but failed. than when all starting ask him why u didnt buy chick or smth like that his answer is:what?or i dont using chick! or just sry or i didnt see!Therefore I think if new player cames at dr and than he failed(feed etc) he should play pub or in another community for improve his/her skills and than come back to dr and play games with high skilled players.

To my mind jugger or veno with 0-10 stats after 20 min it is so bad.He feed yours enemys or allies ,so he ran the game.
Also if ppl reported him few times about internetional feeding nothing happens.Also if gm in game he says that all got bay day.

[Sir Rogers]

Hey guys,

I've been giving this issue a lot of thought. As it has been mentionned, it's a friendly gaming community. At the very beginning of dotarank I was banning a lot of people for feeding and being noob until I took a step back and had a look at what I was doing and I realized that banning new players was completely against what I was trying to accomplish here.

However the people who are better at the game and those who have been in the communtiy for longer do deserve to be protected and have the possibility to get good games. So last night gude_laune had a great idea. He proposed the idea of giving people a "flag" if they are good enough for cm games, which means having teamplay, listening etc...

I want to take it a step further. I think we can have some kind of a badge system. There would be all kind of badges for different things, some examples bellow:

Manner Badge: The player has shown a mannered behaviour over X amount of games.
Teamplay Badge: The palyer has shown that he is able to communicate and play with the team.
Captain Badge: The player has shown that he knows how to pick and ban the right heroes in a captain's mode.
Reliablity Badge: The player has shown that he's sitting behind a good internet connection and doesn't usually disconnect from games.

And so forth. What do you guys think? So I think that we can start to restrict games and that only people who have certain badges are able to join cm games (i.e. Teamplay Badge).

[Spasmolyt]

Interesting, but then how are badges distributed? Is it a GM job to award badges or do you want to base it on votes? Both systems have several problems and will be unfair...

[Fluffy]

Hey,
this idea sounds great. So who will decide if someone should get a badge or not? Only the gms? The problem i see here is, that it will be hard for new players to get these flags. The people who have the badges already want to play with other ones who have the badges, because they all want to get a good game and dont want to risk to waste their time.
Or will these badges only be necessary for cm and ih games? personally i like rd games more, but you cant make the system for all types of games without getting 2 classes of players, so its kinda hard to find a fair way.

[Sir Rogers]

Hey,
this idea sounds great. So who will decide if someone should get a badge or not? Only the gms? The problem i see here is, that it will be hard for new players to get these flags. The people who have the badges already want to play with other ones who have the badges, because they all want to get a good game and dont want to risk to waste their time.
Or will these badges only be necessary for cm and ih games? personally i like rd games more, but you cant make the system for all types of games without getting 2 classes of players, so its kinda hard to find a fair way.

Well I think it would be half automated and the other half done by GMs. For example a script can detect whether or not the player has disconnected recently.
Let's say after a player has played 20 games, he will be forwarded to be reviewed by a GM and then the GM will distribute a Teamplay badge if appropriate, or the players will have to apply for the badge. I think the latter is a better idea, where the player would have to link a few of his dotarank replays and then the gms can give him the appropriate badge aftger he was checked.

I know it's always hard to find a fair way, but right now we have to find a good way to protect game quality which seems to be increasingly dropping.

Spas please tell me about the pros and cons you had in mind.

[sertuki]

Rogers I think it is very good idea.im support u!with this idea we can have good cm games.But 1 qusteion.Guys without flag couldnt sign cm ?

[Sir Rogers]

Rogers I think it is very good idea.im support u!with this idea we can have good cm games.But 1 qusteion.Guys without flag couldnt sign cm ?

That's the idea. The sign system exists because of two very specific reason:

1) It's user friendly. It's very easy to understand and simple to handle, all you have to do is write !sign to the channel and you can play games.

2) It accomodates for a small playerbase. I've been trying to keep dotarank as small as possible because we're still kinda in Beta although everything runs smooth.
I believe that we can boost playernumbers a lot but I don't want to rush things, before that happens I want to be sure that we can handle newcomers without sacrificing game quality for it.

So this means that in the future the way sign works can be and possibly will be changed. So if you sign for rd you will only get players who signed to play an rd game, same with cm whilst blank votes go for any mode. There might even be more advanced features if I can get things to work on a client.

We will also be testing the new hosting system where everyone can host their own inhouses like GMs do. The feature is mostly intended to facilitate the inhouse hosting process for GMs, however it will also allow people to host inhouses for their friends. When this system will be implemented and how it will affect things is a question I can't answer right away :P

[sertuki]

rly good idea Rogers.good luck in this!

[Sir Rogers]

rly good idea Rogers.good luck in this!

Sounds like a lot of work reading over my own post again. You'll need to lend me a helping hand in this.

Any ideas and suggestions on how things should work so I can make a clear imagine in my head and see what you guys want.

Gogo :-)

With the ideas mainly focussing on the sign system or any other type of system to arrange games which you think would be better. Anything that you can come up with really.

[Spasmolyt]

Well, I guess the option of badges beeing distributed due to players voting every game on who had a good teamplay or not is not seriously considered.
Badges given by GMs could be unfair when the badges are awarded in the game that they are awarded for, because some players will probably not see a GM in their game for a very long time, depending on the time of day they're playing and luck.

Players getting flagged by the bot after a certain number of games has the problem that it would be very hard to implement that kind of system for every sort of badge, because the bot surely cannot judge if a person had good teamplay or not, but it could work for disconnect-free games and the like. But it causes lots of work for you to implement that system and also to reimplement the system for GMs to be access the replays saved by the hostbot... and it causes lots of work for the GMs that have to sift through 50 replays a day because the bot sent them an automatically generated message that this player could be good enough for the XXX badge.

The system you thought of with players having to apply for a badge and then a GM judging it sounds best to me, because then initiative will be awarded, the number of replays that GMs have to watch will be drastically lower and the judging is only done by people instead of involving a hard to code, probably faulty script. Still, it would very much depend on the GM reviewing the application (likes the player or not, likes the playing style or not, is in good or bad mood) and you have to implement the system for GMs to be able to review all the replays in question too unless the players applying need to upload them all.
If the players need to upload their replays, they could just select 5 good ones where they had teamwork and leave the 50 bad ones where they flamed and blamed all game on their hard disk.

Nonetheless, I think the most pressing matter that needs fixing at the moment is the megalag in every running game every time another game starts or ends. It sometimes causes unjustified deaths and can ruin games. At the very least, it's very, very annoying and it will increase with the number of games played simultaneously.

[Phi]

Wow, good idea with the badges.

We could make badge system similar to ihcs vouch system. Every player that has a badge (*edit) in a certain is able to vouch another in the same badge, but if the other one can't handle it or turns out to actually not be as promised the player vouching him could get a "badge warn". A certain number of warns means he looses his badge (*edit) ofc (not as strict as ihcs, but they are unmannered lollis anyway).

Other than that a badgevote option could be nice too. Any player can be nominated for a badge by any other player, he only needs a certain amount of votes from ranked or badged players (which rank and badge is discussable ofc).

A hierarchy regarding the badges would be nice too. Lowest is reliability, because your internet connection has to do with your income, the country u live in etc. This one should be autogained if a certain game-leave ratio is fullfilled.
The other ones i would associate with each other. You can't get teamplay badge without manner badge, because "omfg, u stupid prick, make some wards you teamplay nap" just won't do, for me at least. You need to be able to talk to people in a normal way before you can say you are able to communicate in a constructive manner and teamplay.
You cant get captains badge without teamplay badge, because if someone can be captain he has to have a larger view of the metagame, which of course includes teamplay more than anything. This is not limited to knowing combos, solo heroes, wood heroes and a few aoe, push or lategame strategies, but with your ability to be a captain for your team and take command if necessary. And there the circle closes again. You can't take command like "hey, idiot puck, go gank ffs, ur lvl 8 no gank omg nap. what u do, farm for third world war?", so you need a manner badge for that.

And here comes the deal. If your captain tells you something, you gotta do it or you can possibly get a badge warn for your teamplay badge. If other "teamplay badgers" try to tell you something but you have a bad mood and want 2 solo farm your VS to get your imba lothars manta combo instead of warding and letting your carry aka naix die in his wood. etcetc... a million possiblities on getting badges, but it MUST be possible to loose them again. Quite a few players lay back and relax if they reach a certain status and think they are untouchable. If I play with a guy that did all this things to get a badge I want him to rise to the occasion when playing with or against me. Ofc anybody can have bad games, but thats because I thought a badge warn system is better than to immediatly strip ppl off they hard earned medals of honor.

btw, this is only brainstorm 101, so as bruce lee said: "take what is useful, reject what is useless" and "be like water" if you're playing morph. :P

[_Seeker_]

I read almost all what you guys posted,and if you guys want to "filter" players a good way in doing this is to put them to play test games,and after that you guys can give them the badges they deserve. If u guys agree with my idea i can elaborate a bit. I wait your comments on this. Cheers.

[sertuki]

I read almost all what you guys posted,and if you guys want to "filter" players a good way in doing this is to put them to play test games,and after that you guys can give them the badges they deserve. If u guys agree with my idea i can elaborate a bit. I wait your comments on this. Cheers.

I think test game is rly good idea.But now when dr got more that 100 players it is hard.we need more than week(i think) for test games.

[Sirian]

I read almost all what you guys posted,and if you guys want to "filter" players a good way in doing this is to put them to play test games,and after that you guys can give them the badges they deserve. If u guys agree with my idea i can elaborate a bit. I wait your comments on this. Cheers.

I think test game is rly good idea.But now when dr got more that 100 players it is hard.we need more than week(i think) for test games.

I think a fixed time in the week, say tuesday and thursday eve at 8, could solve that pretty quickly.