Updated EXP system [Suggestion]

[D.W.M.C]

I think the main idea is great.. Works fine for me, but I think it should be changed a little in some points.. Please let me know if it's impossible to code or w/e.. Some of the ideas were also suggested back on divleague.eu (This update requires a stats-reset, which I think is needed anyway.)
The problem as I see it, is the leavers. -50 EXP is nothing when you gain 100 for a win.
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Teambonus:
Winning/Losing: +50/-50
Tower: +1
Rack: +1
Enemy tower: -1
Enemy rack: -1
Enemy creeps: -1/250
Enemy denies: -1/25

Playerbonus:
Herokill: +5-(1*#assists)
Assist: +1
Death: -5
Creeps: +1/50
Denies: +1/5

Leaverbonus:
Leave: -100
When losing:
1 leaver: +25
2 leavers: +66
3 leavers: +150 (Games is automatically forfeited and it is free to leave.)
When winning:
1 leaver: +37
2 leavers: +100
3 leavers: N/A due to the autoforfeit. (Read "When losing with 3 leavers")

.ff command is only useable after 20 min.
(If the enemy team kills the tree/throne within the next 3 min, the loss is doubled, thus the gain for the other team.)
.kick command is only useable within the first 15 min.
(This prevents people from kicking a random player, just before they win, for an extra bonus)
__________________________________________________ ________________________________

I would really like some opinions! What can be improved? New ideas? Shoot.!

[Pthirus_pubis]

well i think +1 for a tower is a bit to less, at least 3 points and i think a tower is worth more points than a rax, since its not hard to kill the rax if u got the tower in front of it down.
The points for creeps are ok the way they are now, the way u put it would mean 250 creeps are the same as 1 solo herokill, i think 250 cs is worth a bit more.

The herokill - assist thing is a nice idea, but the way it is that would mean, that someone with radi pretty much fucks his teams points up, it would encourage not only support heros but solo heros as well like clinkz or gondar. And if u lessen the gain for a kill with assists, you have to do the same to the penalty if u get killed, wich would mean -1 if u get ownd by 5 people, else a person with 6/6 stats would probably actually loose quite some points and a person with 0/0 wouldnt.
As i think the goal in this is to encourage support heros, wouldnt it be better if u for example
dot it like this:
kill +5
if there is 1 assist its worth 3 points
2-3 is worht 2 points
4 is worth 1 point or smth like that
so lets say there is only 1 support hero in a 5on5 fight, the support heros gets
quite some points for aoe spells etc, while the carrys fight 1on1 or 2on1 etc, and
the support hero could actually gain more with his assists than a carry fighting 1on1

in ur calculation i see the problem, that you dont gain much points for kill creeps towers anymore, wich makes it pretty much irrelevant how u played, since u only gain 9 points or smth with it,
way more important are leavers and the win or loose, good players wont gain more than bad ones,
someone with 260/45 cs after 60 mins and lets say 12/12/6 could actually get pretty much the same score as someone with 0/1/8 and 60/10 or even loose more:
12 kills with 3-4 assists each = 60-40 = +20
12 deaths = -60
+ 6 assists
260/45cs = 14
making him loose -20 points

the other one
0 kills = +0
1 death = -5
8 assists
60/10cs= 3
making this one gain 6 points

and dont u dare not reading this it was quite some work ;O


forgot smth:
i think the one thing that absolutly needs to be done is the penalty-increase for leavers,
as the other points arent that imortant/good changes (in my eyes), i think they wont
make it a need to change the entire system and make a reset etc.
but plz increase the -50 points >.>

[D.W.M.C]

The tower and rax bonus is 1 EXP for each player: 5 in all.. Doesn't matter who gets the lasthit, pushing is a teamthing and a guy picking Clinkz JUST for backdooring shouldnt be rewarded for a towerkill while his team fail to defend 4v5..

I kept the score for creeps pretty low for a reason.. I want people to farm less and gank more.. I don't want people to prolong games just so they can creep more, to get more EXP..

Let me explain the herokill algorythm:
Herokill: +5-(1*#assists)
Blue killed Pink : Blue +5, Pink -5
Blue killed Pink with assist from Purple : Blue +4, Purple +1. Pink -5
Blue killed Pink with assist from Teal, Purple and Yellow : Blue +2, Teal +1, Purple +1, Yellow +1, Pink -5

This is imo the best possible way to do it..
I'd say a guy with 0-0-5 is way better for the game than someone with 1-0-0..

Consider being techies, suiciding everyone: 6-6-0
His mates fight hard for the team and all get 0-0-6..

This system does indeed discourage carries compared to the other one, but thats the point! Currently, Shadow Fiend is the best possible hero for getting EXP fast.. He can farm like mad, get 50%+ of all kills and is one of the easiest heroes to deny with.. He can still harvest EXP due to his AOE spells etc, but not at the same level..

Heroes like Gondar on the other hand, usually kills a lot, few assists and a rather weak farm.. Some just waits in invis for the last hit, making the people fighting for the kill furious.. Others even go Dagon just for the kills.. I want an end to this and I think this new system could help a great deal.!

[hans2]

your post is hard to read
pls point out the things you like to change
more bonus as -50 for leaver is impossible

on higher bonus people have free game on 3x5 which makes no sense

[Pthirus_pubis]

Let me explain the herokill algorythm:
Herokill: +5-(1*#assists)
Blue killed Pink : Blue +5, Pink -5
Blue killed Pink with assist from Purple : Blue +4, Purple +1. Pink -5
Blue killed Pink with assist from Teal, Purple and Yellow : Blue +2, Teal +1, Purple +1, Yellow +1, Pink -5


y, i understood that, but the problem i tried to point out is still there, a player with lets say 4:4:4 actually would loose points if there are many assists (or even a average number of assists)
he might even did the greatest part of a job, if u lessen the killnonus by assists u have to do the same to the deathpenalty, this way u would either need a low risk hero like leo to avoid deaths because u actually loose points with even stats or take a hero that kills solo or take supporter heros, but i think the trend with this system will go to heros like gondar or clinkz that are hard to kill, gain kills and farm bad, they would profit the most compared to others, and i dont think this support thing would work out in the way u think, i for example would pick a hero dealing a lil bit dmg on everyone, is hard to kill so i get mass assists and survive, but is that really a help? Healing, support auras etc still wont be picked very often, for example pick zeus chain lightning and ulti in mid fight, run for it and gain the assists for lets say 4 kills, or loose.
There is no fair play in a competitive system XD.

And about the cs system, u dont gain that much exp trought it, that its a reason to farm all game, people do that to get strong and own or because they dont like their team and dont wanna play with them.

---------- Post added at 08:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:47 PM ----------


your post is hard to read
pls point out the things you like to change
more bonus as -50 for leaver is impossible

on higher bonus people have free game on 3x5 which makes no sense
the penaltyis way to low, nearly every game there are leavers, 50 exp is nothing, if it cant be done this way, maybe say they dont get a positive streak bonus (since the streak bonus isnt part of the closed system anyway) if they got a certain % of leaving, and then they have to stay some games to get the needed % to gain a streak bonus again or smth. Or at least make the leave% visible with the stats, that somewhat fucks up the nice exp points if there is a 40% leave right beside it ^^

Or if a person leaves, he gotta give a part of his exp he gains in the next win to the players of the team he left, i like that idea, that would work in a closed system, lets say he has to give up 30% of the next win or smth (maybe even 50%), if that is even possible

[hans2]

dota dont allow complete 100% hero kill evaluation
e.g. one hits hero 90% hp 2nd hits last 10% so end gets kill 1st only assist
same with creeps only the lasthit gets the money


about leaver exp you must think div is closed exp system so e.g. 2 same skilled player play 100 games the end 50:50 nobody wins or lost exp

lets say player 1 has always a leaver in team to he plays 100 games with 4x5 and end 30:70 (or whatever) so I must adjust the leaver bonus so with 30:70 he dont win or lose exp because both are same skilled

dont forget with leaver a game is changing from -100:+100 to -70:+150
so even with one leaver its enough to win only 1/3 games to keep exp

i hope its somewhat clear now

[D.W.M.C]

dont forget with leaver a game is changing from -100:+100 to -70:+150
so even with one leaver its enough to win only 1/3 games to keep exp

i hope its somewhat clear now

33% wins with a leaver in team is pretty fucking hard.. Today I realised how balanced games can be.. Then someone leaves and the game is over.. In safelow/high it doesn't make that much difference, but in League-games it's pretty damn important to be X vs X and not Y vs X..

Anyway.. I'm too tired to think atm, I'll come back tomorrow and discuss this further ;)!

[D.W.M.C]

Alright. Simple and readable :P I think it should be a 100% closed system and leavers should be punished more than they are now.
(I still think a reset of all stats is needed. So many inactive accounts filling up the ranks. I think a new system is the perfect new start.)
_____________________________________________

EXP GAINS:
Win: +50
Herokill: +5-1*assists (Meaning a solo kill = +5, a kill with 1 assist = +4 for the killer and +1 for the assister)
Assists: +1
Tower: +10 (Teambonus, meaning +2 for each player of the team)
Racks: +5 (Teambonus, meaning +1 for each player of the team)
Courier: +5
25 Creepkills: +1
5 Creepdenies: +1
25 Neutrals: +1

EXP LOSSES:
Lose: -50
Death: -5
Tower lost: -10 (Team)
Racks lost: -5 (Team)
Courier lost: -5
125 creeps by enemy: -1
25 denies by enemy: -1
125 neutrals by enemy: -1

LEAVERS:
Leave: -40
1 leaver: +22/+10 (+72 total if win/-40 total if lose)
2 leavers: +60/+26 (+110 total/-24 total)
3 leavers: N/A/+60 (N/A/+10 total*)
Game is forced to forfeit if a team has 3 leavers..

(*)Using .ff (or if a game is forced to forfeit), the losing team will lose an additional 10 EXP/player for giving up.
This is to balance out the bonus of +10 to the losers with 3 leavers in team+it gives .ff command a consequence. (ATM only the losing team is awarded if they do .ff while the winning team often gain <100 EXP for a game; where they would have got ~+125 if the game had ended regulary. - This gives the winning team a +10 bonus instead of the possible tower/racks/hero-kills.)
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...::: F.A.Q. :::...
[Q]: Coming
[A]: Soon



_____________________________________________

Please discuss. Ask if you don't understand it, tell ups and downs.
2 minds is stronger than 1 ! :b

[hans2]

a lot of random changes
reset ladder is not possible so try find changes without ladder reset

[Aravis]

The good thing is that with dwmc's solution it would be more closed.

Currently assists and towers (if not killed by a player) are not closed, with the suggestion it would be.
And it seems pretty balanced, since you get more exp for towers killed, but less for kills.

[Bobby_gBG]

1. I agree with .ff to get additional +10 exp for the winners and -10 exp for the losers than a standard tree/throne destruction.
I think that this command is to save time, and not to save exp.

2. I suggest different balance for the assists
a) +1 exp for each assist.
b) the total team Assists are summed, then divided by 5 and the result is rounded to the closest integer and then removed from the scores of the other team.

e.g. - the 5 sentinel have 10 15 2 16 18 assists and they receive the same emount of exp
The sum 61 = 12,2 = 12 per player
so each scourge player loses additional 12 exp.
the same is with the assists of the scourge.

[hans2]

1. I agree with .ff to get additional +10 exp for the winners and -10 exp for the losers than a standard tree/throne destruction.
I think that this command is to save time, and not to save exp.

2. I suggest different balance for the assists
a) +1 exp for each assist.
b) the total team Assists are summed, then divided by 5 and the result is rounded to the closest integer and then removed from the scores of the other team.

e.g. - the 5 sentinel have 10 15 2 16 18 assists and they receive the same emount of exp
The sum 61 = 12,2 = 12 per player
so each scourge player loses additional 12 exp.
the same is with the assists of the scourge.

1) .ff score is pretty much close the the score with throne down (i changed bot that way)
2) giving ganks 9 exp for kill and solo player giving 5 exp would make ganks kills better as solo kills as div is free each type should be same value

one way to handle assist would be to score assist same as kills (lasthit) so the 5 exp is shared between killer and assist but killsteal is a motivation and if everything is shared people will maybe lose motivation and play less skilled

[Bobby_gBG]

2) giving ganks 9 exp for kill and solo player giving 5 exp would make ganks kills better as solo kills as div is free each type should be same valueWell dota is Teamgame, and I think that people should be motivated to teamplay, and not play only solo..

Or you think that dota should be played only solo and encourage that? The solo play games are the most stupid games in the entire universe.
And the best and most interesting games are always the ones where there was big teamplay, and not just some noob going around solo ruining the whole game...

Once again - I think teamplay should be awarded, and encouraged... And giving extra score for teamplay is very helping the game.
Additional - I don't agree that Killsteal is not a positive motivation, it is a way to ruin the game, by wasting your spells to kill steal, and then failing to win the teambattle 5 seconds later cause of CD...

Plus rarely there are 5 man gangs, most of the time 5 man are teambattles...
And during the teambattles for kill you win 9 exp, opponent loses 4 exp, but is exactly the same for them as for you - 9 win for them and 4 lose for you...
In the end most of it balances out, if both teams have like a total of 80 assists per team, no 1 will win or lose exp, but as Dota is teamgame, the more organized team should get more exp from theirs assists then it will lose from enemy assists.

[D.W.M.C]

a lot of random changes
reset ladder is not possible so try find changes without ladder reset

If we use the values currently used, it would look like this: (Actually, it makes more sense xD Better values to work with)

EXP GAINS:
Win: +100
Herokill: +5-1*assists (Meaning a solo kill = +5, a kill with 1 assist = +4 for the killer and +1 for the assister)
Assists: +1
Tower: +15 (Team)
Racks: +5 (Team)
Courier: +5
25 Creepkills: +1
5 Creepdenies: +1
25 Neutrals: +1

EXP LOSSES:
Lose: -100
Death: -5
Tower lost: -15 (Team)
Racks lost: -5 (Team)
Courier lost: -5
125 creeps by enemy: -1
25 denies by enemy: -1
125 neutrals by enemy: -1

LEAVERS:
Leave: -80
1 leaver: +45/+20 (+145 total if win/-80 total if lose)
2 leavers: +120/+53 (+220 total/-47 total)
3 leavers: N/A/+120 (N/A/+20 total*)
Game is forced to forfeit if a team has 3 leavers..

(*)Using .ff will make the losing team lose an additional 20 EXP/player for giving up.
__________________________

My personal experience with the current system is that there are way too many leavers.. People doesn't seem to care about the -50 punishment.. On the other hand, those who doesn't leave care so much, that they will use .ff just to save up to 25 EXP..

I played POTM a few days ago and got a score of 4-1-7 and destroyed 2 towers + 1 Rack.. I had around 50 creepkills and 15 denies.. I had a +20 bonus from streak and the game was balanced 50/50..
So in theory I should have got ~+150 EXP for this game.. But the enemy team forfeited the game, after just 25 min and I got a final score of +97 EXP.. So I can't believe that using .ff would be the same as if not..

With my idea, the forfeiting team has to take the concequence no matter what.. For them, it should be about saving time, and maybe in the long run some EXP due to feeding etc. A prize of -20 EXP/player is worth 5 towers+5 barracks which is basically the whole base.. That is imo a fair deal, both for the winning as well as for the losing team..

and just for the record: Why is a ladder-reset out of the question? I mean, DIV just entered DIV version 3.0 right? why not start a new round in the ranks as well? (I know you didn't reset the ladder for DIV v2.0 even tho you made a lot of changes in between.)

[Bobby_gBG]

and just for the record: Why is a ladder-reset out of the question? I mean, DIV just entered DIV version 3.0 right? why not start a new round in the ranks as well? (I know you didn't reset the ladder for DIV v2.0 even tho you made a lot of changes in between.)Well in case of ladder-reset at least 1/3 of the DIV population will stop play DIV...

Stats reset would have been an available option if Hans made it 2-3 months ago when he resurrected DIV, people would have accepted it, and just be glad that DIV is back.
But now... Totally unacceptable... Div is about to return to normal play...

About the leaver punishment - I suggested 1% exp penalty for the FIRST LEAVER and then additional 50 exp.
The next leavers will get only the 50 exp penalty.

Lets say a 10k leaver goes away FIRST from the game he thinks he will lose
50 + 100 + the score of the game = ~250-350 exp
now they get only 150-250 exp loss.

And this 100 (or more) extra leaver exp will be divided among the players which wait until game end.

[hans2]

i tried once 75 leaver penatly instead of 50 but that was already too much

you forget that the winning team gets atleast +150 for win extra with one leaver
thats +300 with 2 leaver




well worth to fight 4x5 to win

[D.W.M.C]

I think +145 EXP is a fair deal for winning a game 4v5..
Everything gets harder.. Farming, ganking, pushing.. 5 people will ALWAYS beat 4 people, if the teams are evenly matched..
Leaves doesn't usually happen for the already winning team.. The losing team will always have more leavers: hence it gets even EVEN harder to win.. I'm much more concerned about the losers with leavers than the winners.. Cus the winners wont happen often anyway..

(Take in consideration that with the stronger penalty, people won't leave as much in general. The only issue is random disconnects.. But that's a sacrifice I'm willing to offer.. A disc happens once in a while for everyone, while leavers wont change their habbits unless something is done..)

[Bobby_gBG]

i tried once 75 leaver penatly instead of 50 but that was already too muchIf applied to all players - yes.
And especially for safelow and safehigh - yes.
That's why I dont say 75 penalty
I sya 50 + 1%

For a guy with 500 exp 1% is 5 exp so this means 55 - so for low EXP players this penalty can be ignored.

But for high exp players this will have dire consequences.

Me for instance - the moment I see the game is hopelessly lost, and my team don't want to forfeit, and defeat is still far away I simply leave - for me this 50 exp penalty is just ridiculous... And I will never sacrifice 20-30 minutes to save this 50 exp...

And I say it again - THIS 1% EXTRA EXP LOSS IS ONLY FOR THE FIRST LEAVER OF THE GAME AFTER FIRST BLOOD! The next leavers will have only the standard 50 exp penalty!

It is absolutely necessary to make the people think twice before leaving a 5v5 game... That is the whole point of my suggestion
Ofc. votekicked players should not receive this 1% exp penalty, cause it will be highly abusable...

After that 4v5 is free to leave for the small fee of 50 exp...