Experience

[loool]

Ok, so apparently the number of users active on this forum is closer to zero then it is to 100. Nonetheless, I'm gonna write another post. , questioning experience.

Could someone tell me why it is that higher experience = more rights. I have seen so many people with 4k, 5k, 10k and even more experience who are TOTAL NOOBS. Seriously. The only reason they have so much exp, is because they played way more on div then me. They played 300 games, of which only 140 wins or so (so < 50 % win ratio), but because exp is given the way it is, they still end up with high exp. It's sad that they get preference in games (people with lower exp just get kicked out of the lobby if they try to join), and that they are the gm while they suck ass. You can't justify this in my opinion. Any comments on this? And don't go pissing at me without arguments, I'm tryint to have a normal discussion.

[o.O]Mentiroso]

easy thing bro :)
you always have more rights if you do something for a longer time than others.
just imagine you have a job and suddenly u get a suckass new boss just because he worked longer in this factory or w/e .
what i wanna say with that : if you are no natural, then you have no chance to get more rights without investing more time into it.

and yes, ofc many bobs are gm , but they cant do shit becides deciding when to start and / or swapping. and ... most guys which get gm just start when its full , so i don't get your point.
they have no really "special" rights.


greetings :)

[Pthirus_pubis]

Ok, so apparently the number of users active on this forum is closer to zero then it is to 100. Nonetheless, I'm gonna write another post. , questioning experience.

Could someone tell me why it is that higher experience = more rights. I have seen so many people with 4k, 5k, 10k and even more experience who are TOTAL NOOBS. Seriously. The only reason they have so much exp, is because they played way more on div then me. They played 300 games, of which only 140 wins or so (so < 50 % win ratio), but because exp is given the way it is, they still end up with high exp. It's sad that they get preference in games (people with lower exp just get kicked out of the lobby if they try to join), and that they are the gm while they suck ass. You can't justify this in my opinion. Any comments on this? And don't go pissing at me without arguments, I'm tryint to have a normal discussion.

the exp system actually is supposed to work (way more than in other leagues) in a way that mass games doesnt necessarily result in mass exp (there are people with 800 games in safelow and there are people with 30 in league). That doesnt work 100% but it is as good as it gets with bot claculations. And what would be the point of a league if the exp wouldnt count anything, that would be the exact same thing as random public games. If u are a good player u get the exp necessary to not get kicked and being the gm in no time. The idea here is that the exp actually represents the skill more than the win ratio. but that got heavily discussed in like 100 threads so before u start a discussion over that im begging u (rly iam ...) to first read them and if u think u got smth new im more than interested to hear it

[loool]

the exp system actually is supposed to work (way more than in other leagues) in a way that mass games doesnt necessarily result in mass exp (there are people with 800 games in safelow and there are people with 30 in league). That doesnt work 100% but it is as good as it gets with bot claculations. And what would be the point of a league if the exp wouldnt count anything, that would be the exact same thing as random public games. If u are a good player u get the exp necessary to not get kicked and being the gm in no time. The idea here is that the exp actually represents the skill more than the win ratio. but that got heavily discussed in like 100 threads so before u start a discussion over that im begging u (rly iam ...) to first read them and if u think u got smth new im more than interested to hear it

You just disagree with anything I say don't you? Please understand I don't want to crap on div-leauge, I'm trying to help. But it sure seems like you are trying to talk every aspect of div-league right. Anyway, this exp system actually does work like this: Mass games = mass exp. I've seen people with 40 % win percentage and 10k exp. Explain to me how this is not 'mass games = mass exp'. And I'm not surprised this got discussed a 100 times before, because the way exp is handed out in this league just doesnt work. It's crap. I will however do what you say, and look into the older threads. However, this is now, and a lot changed. So this discussion is ready to be taken on again imo.

---------- Post added at 08:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:02 PM ----------


Mentiroso;440563']easy thing bro :)
and yes, ofc many bobs are gm , but they cant do shit becides deciding when to start and / or swapping. and ... most guys which get gm just start when its full , so i don't get your point.
they have no really "special" rights.


greetings :)

Well, apperently if you have 15k+ exp, you can kick and ban all you like. And also, you always get into a game, while I (with 1k-5k exp, depends what account) get kicked out of half of the games I join. And the games I do play, I ususally own the gm's with 10k exp...

[o.O]Mentiroso]

i thought this thread is not about talking about skill , rather about something else.
but, dude you can give a shit of being gm. you cannot ban or kick guys o.O
and ye feel good u pwn those 10k+ xp guys which were gms, there will be also some 0 xp guys which would pwn you ^^

and also , with 5k xp u can play safehigh easily without being kicked. and with 7k u can go playall if u always get kicked in league, to gather some more xp

[Pthirus_pubis]

You just disagree with anything I say don't you? Please understand I don't want to crap on div-leauge, I'm trying to help. But it sure seems like you are trying to talk every aspect of div-league right. Anyway, this exp system actually does work like this: Mass games = mass exp. I've seen people with 40 % win percentage and 10k exp. Explain to me how this is not 'mass games = mass exp'. And I'm not surprised this got discussed a 100 times before, because the way exp is handed out in this league just doesnt work. It's crap. I will however do what you say, and look into the older threads. However, this is now, and a lot changed. So this discussion is ready to be taken on again imo.

---------- Post added at 08:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:02 PM ----------



Well, apperently if you have 15k+ exp, you can kick and ban all you like. And also, you always get into a game, while I (with 1k-5k exp, depends what account) get kicked out of half of the games I join. And the games I do play, I ususally own the gm's with 10k exp...

ok so about the first part, all u are asking has already been asked, yes i disagree with you and i explained more then detailed in these other threads (i hope u read them now) why

look at say 10 players with 10k exp and you will see how different the gamenumbers are
there are people with 1500 games and 8k exp and there are people with 200 games and 25k exp
i dont say the system works perfectly but its not easy to make it better in a way its meant to work (and it pretty much works as it is meant)

the facts u say are bad about the system (people with higher exp get the slot, have more rights)
are actually things the most people here including myself like. what is the point of a league if the exp doesnt do anything (if there is no upgrade u can forgeat about the whole safelow safeigh league concept and in the first place about the balance system that needs uogrades)

i dont get why you are playing div if u dont like the basic ideas behind it...

about the second part
no people with higher exp have as good as no rights, the player upgrades are bot based
there is noone excpet the whole team that can kick, there is no ban whatsover in div, the only thing u can do is change the latmode ...imba

[hans2]

The best proof that exp works pretty nice is that most people end with 50% winratio (if not all) which is direct cause of working balance system which is direct based on working exp

you can see plenty of fun leagues where all good player have 90% winratio and stay like that becuase exp and balance means nothing there

[xellaron]

Well i find the exp system is lil messed up sometime i plaY a game 10min long and then i got like 1-2 leaver and and when i got in that game a 2 -1 kill/deth sccore i got in the end -150 points becouse the enyms got like 3 towers if i would leaved the game at the time the leaver leved it i would lose like maybe only 160 exp too that snot much diffrent i just want to say sometimes if you leave a game you will get less exp losse or almost the same when you stay till end of a losing game.

And that in div-leage to just get start with the first 2-4 game is very hard and userunfreindly many of my friend dont event started this league becouse of it if you just start to play and you have 0 exp point you will need to try sometimes 7 -10 games till you get in one. Other league let you play at the beginn you dont get kicked from a system becouse you get 0 exp and thats make peopels intrest in the game .
I dont think that if you get kicked in a game you just want to start with every time that it will keep you intred.


There should be a auto vouch for safelow players in the safe low league becouse it realy get frustrating if you get kicked in almost every game even if its in the league that is desing for beginners.

[loool]

The best proof that exp works pretty nice is that most people end with 50% winratio (if not all) which is direct cause of working balance system which is direct based on working exp

you can see plenty of fun leagues where all good player have 90% winratio and stay like that becuase exp and balance means nothing there

No, this just means there's less people playing div that are really good. But there's still enough people with 60% winrate, which is close to twice as many wins as losses (66 % win = twice as much wins as losses).

I really appreciate that you responded to this thread btw, but I still don't agree with the way exp is giving. I think that in the dota-community people on average think good about the dota-league site/leauge. And as it works there, the whole team gets +5 if it wins, the losing team -3, but if you have a leaver on your team you get no change in points (if you lose). This works better in my opinion.

You get better games, because: people actually form a team. They get 1-2 carries / semi-carries, a tank, and 1 or 2 support. It doesnt matter which they play, the exp is always the same if they win. On div, it's rare to see someone play a support hero properly. And by properly, I mean actually supporting. So that means not taking kills, buyinh wards/dust, getting meka maybe, etc. Why don't people do this? Well I'll tell you, because it gives you way too low exp. I never do it, because getting a carry gives me more exp. So often I see teams with only agility and strength heroes. For instance yesterday, I had a team with mort, naix, riki, bara and veno. Well, super fun.... Is my point clear, and how do you guys think its fun to play 5vs5 carry games?


ps: 1 more thing, what xellaron just said: It is so terrible to try and play if you have 0 exp and no games yet. The auto-upgrade function from the bot messes it up so much. I just made a new account to check if this was still the same: I joined 5-6 safelow games in a row, and got kicked every time, because some 50-200 exp player (!!!) apparently deserves it more to play :s

[Feeder.noob]

In my opinion balance system doesn't work perfect. There are usually guys with 12k exp, 48% games won. On the other hand we have guys with 7k points and more than 60% win ratio. I bet that team with 5guys with 12k exp 48% win ratio will have smaller chance to win against team 5guys 7k points >60% win ratio, but system will show that higher exp have higher chance.

There should be a system which add this win ratio to calculate game balance. Let's say we have a player with 10k exp, 60% win ratio. His real value will be (10000*(60%/50%)), so 12k. Player with 10k exp 40% win ratio (10000*(40%/50%)), so 8k value. It will works way better than it does now.

HANS, if u have a game with two teams:

Team 5players 10k exp 60%win ratio, and team 5players 10k exp 40% win ratio, for which one will u bet your salary? Coz for this system it is clearly 50% chance. Really consider this.

Safelow games are totally fucked up, coz new players have same value that player with 20% win ratio, is that work this way? Safehigh, are fucked up for same reason that league and even more...

PS. Please make vouche work only on -playall. It is not funny when some1 vouche his high skilled friend 0exp account...

[Aravis]

No, this just means there's less people playing div that are really good. But there's still enough people with 60% winrate, which is close to twice as many wins as losses (66 % win = twice as much wins as losses).
Nope. Dota league has random teams, while DIV balances which means weaker players are teamed up with good ones. This makes games fairer and keeps even pros at 60%



I really appreciate that you responded to this thread btw, but I still don't agree with the way exp is giving. I think that in the dota-community people on average think good about the dota-league site/leauge. And as it works there, the whole team gets +5 if it wins, the losing team -3, but if you have a leaver on your team you get no change in points (if you lose). This works better in my opinion.
Dota league sucks.
First you have to click in some seconds on the homepage, then in 90% you need to enter results cause no host was there.
If you get a game started you are for sure in the oppsing team as your mate, cause it shuffles and theres no way to play together.

Finally the game is up. But whats that? NORMAL MODE? WTF stupid modes are played there.
Played 20 min. First naps left, 0 wards from support.
Then again you are forced to enter supid results on the homepage. What a shit.


You get better games, because: people actually form a team. They get 1-2 carries / semi-carries, a tank, and 1 or 2 support. It doesnt matter which they play, the exp is always the same if they win. On div, it's rare to see someone play a support hero properly. And by properly, I mean actually supporting. So that means not taking kills, buyinh wards/dust, getting meka maybe, etc. Why don't people do this? Well I'll tell you, because it gives you way too low exp. I never do it, because getting a carry gives me more exp. So often I see teams with only agility and strength heroes. For instance yesterday, I had a team with mort, naix, riki, bara and veno. Well, super fun.... Is my point clear, and how do you guys think its fun to play 5vs5 carry games?



So all carry team looses. Thats safelow/playall. Dont complain, everyone can play there.
And give a look to hero stats. You win more often if you play support but gain less exp, while you win less often with a carry and gain more exp.
Try to climb to league sometime to get better games.

[SIark.]

In my opinion balance system doesn't work perfect. There are usually guys with 12k exp, 48% games won. On the other hand we have guys with 7k points and more than 60% win ratio. I bet that team with 5guys with 12k exp 48% win ratio will have smaller chance to win against team 5guys 7k points >60% win ratio, but system will show that higher exp have higher chance.

There should be a system which add this win ratio to calculate game balance. Let's say we have a player with 10k exp, 60% win ratio. His real value will be (10000*(60%/50%)), so 12k. Player with 10k exp 40% win ratio (10000*(40%/50%)), so 8k value. It will works way better than it does now.


it is already like that O.o check it out

so how do u think this 12k guy with 48% winratio got his exp? trust me, not with sucking around. u get exp for skill - for example lasthitting or ganks

most games ive played were pretty fair - div is in this point the best league. if a player has 60% he will be teamed up with tards - if he still manages to win, he just get bigger tards, which doesnt mean hes not able to gain exp.

leavers exist in every league. its just a high risk with ten players :s

definitely best league.

imo only one thing is strange - upgrades in safelow are unnecessary since this wont lead to "better" games - for me its just kinda "qualifying test" and not an important part of the league. furthermore the upgrades prevent new players for the league. the skill in safehigh, compared to safelow, definitely raises and many players who just play low never did it to safehigh (LEAGUE WORKS) and i dont know why a guy with 500 games 1000 exp should be prefered. a new player for sure wont play worse.

[loool]

Nope. Dota league has random teams, while DIV balances which means weaker players are teamed up with good ones. This makes games fairer and keeps even pros at 60%


Dota league sucks.
First you have to click in some seconds on the homepage, then in 90% you need to enter results cause no host was there.
If you get a game started you are for sure in the oppsing team as your mate, cause it shuffles and theres no way to play together.

Finally the game is up. But whats that? NORMAL MODE? WTF stupid modes are played there.
Played 20 min. First naps left, 0 wards from support.
Then again you are forced to enter supid results on the homepage. What a shit.

So all carry team looses. Thats safelow/playall. Dont complain, everyone can play there.
And give a look to hero stats. You win more often if you play support but gain less exp, while you win less often with a carry and gain more exp.
Try to climb to league sometime to get better games.

It sounds like the last time you played on dotaleague, was like 3-4 years ago. You should try it again, cause all the things you are saying now, don't really sound familiar to me.

[Pthirus_pubis]

It sounds like the last time you played on dotaleague, was like 3-4 years ago. You should try it again, cause all the things you are saying now, don't really sound familiar to me.

even if this will sound like i want you to get off div, i dont, its always nice to have many players,
but if u prefer dota league over div why dont u simply play dota league?
at least i got the feeling from ur posts that this is the case

[D.W.M.C]

Dota-league improved a lot recently in my experience.. More games are actually being played (Still way too many games cancelled due to lack of hosts tho) but I also saw people playing supports with wards and everything..

The major flaw about Dota-league is the rules.. I was playing at DL 7 days ago and had a lousy day, which affected my mood, obviously.. I maybe flamed a bit, but honestly, not that much..
2 games > 2 reports > 14 days ban..

The people who played a lot with me, will know that I rarely flame.. I rarely even talk in-game xD But that policy of DL is a bunch of crap..
To me, Dota isn't the same without the flaming! It makes it much more passionate and exciting.. I don't do it much myself, but I actually prefer having those people who can't stand losing :D

[loool]

even if this will sound like i want you to get off div, i dont, its always nice to have many players,
but if u prefer dota league over div why dont u simply play dota league?
at least i got the feeling from ur posts that this is the case

I was too lazy to reply to the other guy, but you're getting me wrong. I don't prefer dota-league over div (at least not always). I said their point system is simply better. Aravis started to bitch on dota-league, while I didn't even say it was good. I just said the way they distribute points is better.
Btw aravis and dwmc: dl actually just introduced an auto-hosting feature. Just so you know.

[D.W.M.C]

I was too lazy to reply to the other guy, but you're getting me wrong. I don't prefer dota-league over div (at least not always). I said their point system is simply better. Aravis started to bitch on dota-league, while I didn't even say it was good. I just said the way they distribute points is better.
Btw aravis and dwmc: dl actually just introduced an auto-hosting feature. Just so you know.

I was banned from there a week ago, so I wouldn't know ;)

And I disagree with the point system.. On Dota-League they only use win or lose.. It doesn't matter if you feed or play a perfect game - scores will be the same..
Furthermore is the scoring system as far from closed on DL as it could be; which I think is bad as well.. I like that DIV has a somewhat closed system, although I would love a completely closed one.

[Pthirus_pubis]

I was banned from there a week ago, so I wouldn't know ;)

And I disagree with the point system.. On Dota-League they only use win or lose.. It doesn't matter if you feed or play a perfect game - scores will be the same..
Furthermore is the scoring system as far from closed on DL as it could be; which I think is bad as well.. I like that DIV has a somewhat closed system, although I would love a completely closed one.

well it was better once, the mvp (wich is a good idea but in the end its always autovoted and this way a best stats bonus) and the ownage bonus just completly fuck a more or less fair exp output for carrys

[loool]

well it was better once, the mvp (wich is a good idea but in the end its always autovoted and this way a best stats bonus) and the ownage bonus just completly fuck a more or less fair exp output for carrys

I am now going to cotnradict myself. After thinking about it, I guess that the idea behind the point distribution on div is better then on dl. You are right, you can feed and do nothing on dl, and still get a full win. But what you said about mvp is also true. The mvp bonus is auto 90 % of the time, because players are too lazy to actually vote for mvp. Also, I think that assists could be worth slightly more points, a kill is worth 5 times as much as an assist atm. Because of this a smart player will try to get the lasthit (and sometimes steal), and this is bad for the feeling of being a team.

[Aravis]

I am now going to cotnradict myself. After thinking about it, I guess that the idea behind the point distribution on div is better then on dl. You are right, you can feed and do nothing on dl, and still get a full win. But what you said about mvp is also true. The mvp bonus is auto 90 % of the time, because players are too lazy to actually vote for mvp. Also, I think that assists could be worth slightly more points, a kill is worth 5 times as much as an assist atm. Because of this a smart player will try to get the lasthit (and sometimes steal), and this is bad for the feeling of being a team.

DIV has a closed system. That means that if someone gets 1 exp anotherone has to loose 1 exp.
Assists currently generate exp, as nobody will loose exp for it. As for this, this should be kept as low as possible and thus I dont think raising assist exp will be good.
I would rather see only 3 or 4 exp for a kill, that makes assists also more worth but the generated exp will stay the same.

[D.W.M.C]

DIV has a closed system. That means that if someone gets 1 exp anotherone has to loose 1 exp.
Assists currently generate exp, as nobody will loose exp for it. As for this, this should be kept as low as possible and thus I dont think raising assist exp will be good.
I would rather see only 3 or 4 exp for a kill, that makes assists also more worth but the generated exp will stay the same.

mvp's are also generating.. Hence it should be remade imo

[Bobby_gBG]

DIV has a closed system. That means that if someone gets 1 exp anotherone has to loose 1 exp.
Assists currently generate exp, as nobody will loose exp for it. As for this, this should be kept as low as possible and thus I dont think raising assist exp will be good. Well assists are one way to gain exp that no one else loses, but no. The exp inflation is caused by the win streak.

[Aravis]

mvp's are also generating.. Hence it should be remade imo

Not sure about that. Hans did never state anything about that. But you always got -5 when you didnt vote. I think he changed it to the current state where everyone gains 5 exp less which are distributet among the most valuable players.
Could be wrong though.