Playerskill Separation

[NeC.madchen]

Written by sir-rogers.


Ok as you all know, the point system isn't great. It was never meant to be, it was supposed to be an easy system with a somewhat reasonable indication of playerskill and reliability. But let's talk about my latest idea.

Winratio is key. Sure some bad players can be "carried" by their friends, but as long as they keep winning games with their friends, and make the game interesting for both teams then I don't see how that is a problem. DotA is a teamgame and not a singleplayer game, that's why I'm ruling out a system based on ingame stats for now.

So let's say we had some sort of a tier system. Public is the starting ground, then it goes up: Tier1, Tier2, Tier3, etc...

Whenever you move into a new Tier, you start out fresh with 0 games in that Tier. Now after a certain amount of games (5, 10, whatever) the system looks at your performance. If you are doing extremely well, you should be moved up to the next Tier, if you are doing extremely poor, you should be moved down again.

I say that the system should look at winratio. If your winratio is 40% or below, you will be moved down again, if your winratio is 60% or above, you will be moved up again. The theory is that if you play against people that are in your skill range, you will have a winratio around 50%.

Actually there is another element. Tier1 won't require any skill, it will just require you to not leave any games for a certain amount of time (i.e. 10 games). If you play 10 pub games without leaving, you move into the Tier system. The "Tier system" is a "leaver free" system, the different Tier levels represent the skill separation.

So it will solve both the leaver and the skill problem. If you disconnect or leave a "Tier" game, you will be banned and you will be put back into the pub games, until you qualify again to join the leaver free games. You will be put back into your Tier once you've suffered for your sins. :-)

If any of you have tried Starcraft II, it's similar to that. The difference is that SC2 doesn't have to deal with leavers, since the games are much shorter in general.

Feel free to discuss. I'm looking forward to your feedback guys.


Regards,
Sir Rogers

[sparki]

Well as for me its a great suggestion. I'd like to have this system and participate in it.

[e1hplus]

Actually this system is perfect for solo entity games. I say that because it favors team as whole and not the individuals. Its very bad individual player ranking system.

Because team can lift you up and also bring you down.

This system would promote team play, and friendships, it would also emphasize the fact "you are your team and you are only as good as your team".

No solo players with empty friend list would ever make it into top tiers.

But hey, maybe thats a good thing.

Top Tiers would be filled with teams, clans, and friends fighting for the top ranked spot.

Being at the top would actually bring much respect, to people and clans, than in the current system.

I think if you want to promote teams, clans and competition this system is perfect.



As much as i would prefer solo stats ranking system based on ELO i have to agree that the system you suggested is much better for the growth of your DotA community.



I don't see how this system would be any good in in-house leagues?

[sparki]

Well i cant agree that new system wont be good for individual player rank. Because now u dont know who u play with. And if new system is aplyed u'll be sure that your mate is at least not a leaver, that he will not ruin a game and such. Though teams will have an upper hand there is no system that can help skilled single player to go up in ranks even if his team lose.

Well it wold be good to have something like open testgames, so the real human could determine skill level of players. And create some TG point system for it. Maybe only for upper tiers.
This is not a very easy thing to do, but it will be much more interesting this way. And TG points will help good players to advance faster and it'll be more easy for them to find a team.


And one more thing i wanted to point out. Even leaves are rly annoying even pro players have disconnects critical errors and such. So i want you to make an apropriate systems to MOTIVATE not to leave but not to take away everything if you had been disconnected by chance. "Shit happens"... and nothing can be done about that.

Just now have read discussinon on facebook. I dont have an account there so i'll write my thoughts here.

KDA system will not bring any good. Supports will be at total disadvantage then. They die easily and often die to cover carry. Moreover they give all kills again to team carry. And so what will happen? Nobody will want to play suport for sure and moreover to do its job properly. It will totally ruin game.
I have dealt with such system. With attitude like "hahaha u suck u have died 10 times and killed none" though good support will tend to have more deaths than killes anyway even in winning games.
And determine the level of the player only by assists is insane too.

Best regards.

[Sir Rogers]

I don't see how this system would be any good in in-house leagues?

It wouldn't. The system would cover all regional areas and be an official system. I tried pushing game quality with private leagues, but the only one that has managed to really successfully do that is DAS.Ladder, and their channel is limited to cz/sk as far as I know.

I've realized that it's time to change the situation, the private channels saving players from the increase of players that lower the game quality, simply isnt happening.


Regards,
Sir Rogers

[Ks.M.Coco]

I can't say i agree with the system.

[NeC.madchen]

Actually this system is perfect for solo entity games. I say that because it favors team as whole and not the individuals. Its very bad individual player ranking system.

Because team can lift you up and also bring you down.

This system would promote team play, and friendships, it would also emphasize the fact "you are your team and you are only as good as your team".

No solo players with empty friend list would ever make it into top tiers.

But hey, maybe thats a good thing.

Top Tiers would be filled with teams, clans, and friends fighting for the top ranked spot.

Being at the top would actually bring much respect, to people and clans, than in the current system.

I think if you want to promote teams, clans and competition this system is perfect.



As much as i would prefer solo stats ranking system based on ELO i have to agree that the system you suggested is much better for the growth of your DotA community.



I don't see how this system would be any good in in-house leagues?

Actually, one guy did some tests in HoN. He had 1600 PSR and asked S2 to lower his points to 900, after 50 games he was back on 1600. Proof that individual skill exist.

Also, this system must have balance, beacuse stacking would ruin everything. Even stacking with one firend agains 5 random players is a unfair adventage.

[e1hplus]

I wasn't speaking about PSR or ELO. Only about Tier system Roger suggested.

You see Tier system promotes and rewards stacking teams. It would be only way to stay in top Tier.

It is an very interesting suggestion just for that.


Half players wont see anything new or rewarding it this system.

Still i think its worth a shot. At least a beta test of this somewhere.


In mainstream gaming world, and from my personal experience, the most rewarding system for individuals are achievements. Not ladder.

Tier system would be great with the addition of achievements. (obviously cleverly designed to be abuse-proofed)

[Pawlaka]

I agree with the system.I think it will bring us place where good players can play leaver-free & quality games,also it will improve games in public,because people will now even more care about what and how they do in game and will they leave or not
+1 for this system from me (btw ,you should discuss about the names "tire 1" "tire 2" ;by my opinion it isnt so "Dotish" ^_^ )

[e1hplus]

"Tier" has a good meaning. Other synonyms to choose from:

category, class, department, division, grade, group, grouping, head, heading, kind, league, level, list, order, rank, section, sort

[sparki]

it must be done asap. 4 of 6 games today were totally destroed by leavers. Moreover nobody wanted to do rmk because they want points and not a enjoyment... it became points hunting more then fungaming

[NeC.madchen]

I wasn't speaking about PSR or ELO. Only about Tier system Roger suggested.
To get in better tier you need rise up your PSR or ELO.



You see Tier system promotes and rewards stacking teams. It would be only way to stay in top Tier.


It won't promtes stacking if we put balance command.



Half players wont see anything new or rewarding it this system.

Still i think its worth a shot. At least a beta test of this somewhere.


In mainstream gaming world, and from my personal experience, the most rewarding system for individuals are achievements. Not ladder.

Tier system would be great with the addition of achievements. (obviously cleverly designed to be abuse-proofed)

That is hard to stop, or you have some idea about stoping abuse?

Also, i dont think that achievements are the best rewarding system for individuals. The biggest plesure for them is ladder:)

[e1hplus]

To get in better tier you need rise up your PSR or ELO.

As i understand you will only need to keep good win/lose ratio and not big PSR.



It won't promtes stacking if we put balance command.

I don't know if forcing friends to play against each other is good idea. And if you create "lock friends" well then you have stacking again :)



That is hard to stop, or you have some idea about stoping abuse?

Also, i dont think that achievements are the best rewarding system for individuals. The biggest plesure for them is ladder:)

Well, ladder only brings reward to maybe less then 1% of players that are on the top of the ladder. And to get to the top of the ladder is very long and hard job and you only get a little reward. A joy that doesn't last that long.

Joy from achievements doesn't last that long either. But, designing an achievements that you get one every several games on average creates a joyful feeling constantly. Even makes some lost game less frustrating.

List of some very nicely designed achievements from DotaLicious that don't promote bad behavior ingame:

Win X games.

Play X games.

Achieve a win streak of X.

Win X games without losing any tower.

Play all 103 heroes at least once!

Get X triple/ultra/rampage kills.

There are lots of them...

[NeC.madchen]

As i understand you will only need to keep good win/lose ratio and not big PSR.


That's still doubtful, but we will see



I don't know if forcing friends to play against each other is good idea. And if you create "lock friends" well then you have stacking again :)


Creating two ladders, one for solo playing and antother for arranged teams or lock friend, should solve that.


Well, ladder only brings reward to maybe less then 1% of players that are on the top of the ladder. And to get to the top of the ladder is very long and hard job and you only get a little reward. A joy that doesn't last that long.

Joy from achievements doesn't last that long either. But, designing an achievements that you get one every several games on average creates a joyful feeling constantly. Even makes some lost game less frustrating.

I will speak about this one from my point of view, tbh, i would never look at those achievements but i'm just 0,00001% (more or less :D) of all players on RGC.

[sparki]

Well achievments as the only aim of playing wont bring satisfaction. IMHO achievments would be good if they can show some parts of ur skill and such. Like evade projectiles with blink more then 5 times in 1 game. Kill or deny more then 50% creeps till minute 8. and many others like this. Though i doubt it can be done....

[Pawlaka]

List of some very nicely designed achievements from DotaLicious that don't promote bad behavior ingame:
Win X games.

Play X games.

Achieve a win streak of X.

Win X games without losing any tower.

Play all 103 heroes at least once!

Get X triple/ultra/rampage kills.

I think this is not bad idea (it is something like in hon ),it makes gaming more exciting(from my point of view),but it demands a different section on rankedgaming status site.
Btw i think that RGC should have option to make differenc between ''leaving'' a game and ''getting disconected'' from game (because that could put player in a lower tire from different reasoN)This would especialy be frustrating for people who are going to chase the max leveled Tire

[bixtape]

I think this is not bad idea (it is something like in hon ),it makes gaming more exciting(from my point of view),but it demands a different section on rankedgaming status site.
Btw i think that RGC should have option to make differenc between ''leaving'' a game and ''getting disconected'' from game (because that could put player in a lower tire from different reasoN)This would especialy be frustrating for people who are going to chase the max leveled Tire

Yeh i agree with this becouse the system will count the d/c even if u didnt do it on purpose.It sux cuz u cant do anything about it,we must find a solution to this problem how to make difference between plugging and real d/cing!

[.R4T0-]

sir-rogers

Ok as you all know, the point system isn't great. It was never meant to be, it was supposed to be an easy system with a somewhat reasonable indication of playerskill and reliability. But let's talk about my latest idea.

Winratio is key. Sure some bad players can be "carried" by their friends, but as long as they keep winning games with their friends, and make the game interesting for both teams then I don't see how that is a problem. DotA is a teamgame and not a singleplayer game, that's why I'm ruling out a system based on ingame stats for now.

So let's say we had some sort of a tier system. Public is the starting ground, then it goes up: Tier1, Tier2, Tier3, etc...

Whenever you move into a new Tier, you start out fresh with 0 games in that Tier. Now after a certain amount of games (5, 10, whatever) the system looks at your performance. If you are doing extremely well, you should be moved up to the next Tier, if you are doing extremely poor, you should be moved down again.

I say that the system should look at winratio. If your winratio is 40% or below, you will be moved down again, if your winratio is 60% or above, you will be moved up again. The theory is that if you play against people that are in your skill range, you will have a winratio around 50%.

Actually there is another element. Tier1 won't require any skill, it will just require you to not leave any games for a certain amount of time (i.e. 10 games). If you play 10 pub games without leaving, you move into the Tier system. The "Tier system" is a "leaver free" system, the different Tier levels represent the skill separation.

So it will solve both the leaver and the skill problem. If you disconnect or leave a "Tier" game, you will be banned and you will be put back into the pub games, until you qualify again to join the leaver free games. You will be put back into your Tier once you've suffered for your sins. :-)

If any of you have tried Starcraft II, it's similar to that. The difference is that SC2 doesn't have to deal with leavers, since the games are much shorter in general.

Feel free to discuss. I'm looking forward to your feedback guys.


Regards,
Sir Rogers .

Sir-Rogers, you can do this test in Brazil channel without problems. and then when we test it?

[I.HeX.U.SeX]

bright idea rogers,i would love to see this system :D

[Pawlaka]

Is this idea in progress? :D curent public system is becoming more like garena from day to day :D

[Kira_2010]

I really like the idea of achievements if it's possible to integrate that into RGC. It is nice to see you have been a 'warding whore' , 'ultra killer' or 'indestructable' etc in a game, especially since players like to brag about the wonderful things they do but not recognise the others in the team ( not always, but in the majority of cases). Even if it is a computerised, it brings a good level of satisfaction to the game. If you look at the current gaming world, I'm sure there is correlation between game satisfaction and an achievement award system. It adds positive reinforcement to keep playing. Imo most players like to check their stats every once in a while to see how they are doing because they care about their performance. Something that recognises this either per game or over a long period of time (i.e like the dodge 5 projectiles with blink) sounds pretty positive to me. Just don't know how feasible it is to put into RGC :/ .

Thanks for your time,

Kira_2010

[doomco]

agree well idea

[sparki]

curent public system is becoming more like garena from day to day

Its not becoming. It's much worse now. Users now care too much about points. They stack with players 1700+ and noone wants to play with them. Creating several games, going from one to another. They wait for 15-30 mins till 5 total retards with pts 1100- come. And cuz they dont care about em at all they leave early/ And gratz stack gains profit of free pts... ITS SO RARE TO PLAY REALLY GOOD GAME! To play one good game u end up spending several hours.
Garena at least dont care about something like pts, at cares only how u play there is nothing wrong to loose.

I already not playing here for the time bieng till new system is done.
For now I only want to point that something should be done about that ASAP before everyone get tired about this. RGC have many good features but now it's imposible to play here.

[Ruptor]

One fact is for sure: Nothing will ever change. NOTHING. EVER. Its been 4 or 5 years since the first time i joined RGC. Nothing has changed.
A simple idea of mine is to extend the window of the app and add 3 or 4 areas for people to join games. The difference? Is that the other 3 or 4 areas will only be avaliable for people ABOVE 1600 / 1700 / 1800 and the last will be 2000+(cuz there is no difference either way above). This way , the engine will function the same way. There will be a min restriction before anyone else can enter the game , and its only a little amount of code that stops other players from joining the windows in the app ,based on their scores.

edit : I`ve seen the bot hosting serveral games in seconds. Crazy speed of hosting. There shouldn`t be a problem with the app working that way. And the community is gratualy going down , because of this disbalance. This client will die SOONER OR LATER IF THIS CONTINUES. If it doesnt dies there will ba a stady amount of players (around 100 players) that are just founding out the minuses of this client and will leave not long after they find out.

[TakeDrugs]

put a match making system based on win rate, that way a bunch of 90%+ friends wont stack against 5 randoms and will have to play on separate teams instead.

just do something, the system right now is basically just garena with points and rankings that don't affect anyone.

[DXD_!]

Sir-rogers What About points in every tier
Did tHe points will rest Form new ?????

[rat]

In the way of progress I am sure this system can create more pros in rgc.

[wNL~Legend]

In the way of progress I am sure this system can create more pros in rgc.

Start banning lowskill instead and you will create even more pros?