30 Minutes

[Gruufhai]

1. Game should last more than 30 minutes.


This is a bad feature.

I mainly play -ar, no em, and as you can see, only 56% of my games are rated. The rest remains unrated, mostly because of too much leavers who ruined the game too fast.

So wasn't Arank meant to be a tool against leavers? Can anyone explain me why it ignores the majority of games that become destroyed by leavers?

When I look around, I see that 1/4 to 1/3 of ignored games is normal. Most of those games are being ignored due to <30 mins, and usually games last that short because of leavers.

I think if Arank is really meant to help to keep games leaver-free, it must not ignore the majority of games who become ruined by leavers; those 3v5 after 20 minutes ones.

Maybe it brings up other problems when trying to rate shorter games, but the cut at 30 minutes is unacceptable in my point of view. Discuss.

[cr33pstalk3r]

i believe game shorter than 30 mins is not a game at all ;D ;D ... EM hence the EASY MODE/EMO MODE ..

[Sir Rogers]

30min are 30min. To ensure that you are really playing a game of dota and not a leaver's game.

30min is already low for a dota game. And it will stay that way.

[Gruufhai]

i believe game shorter than 30 mins is not a game at all


Why? A good pushing lineup can finish a game <30 minutes.


... EM hence the EASY MODE/EMO MODE ..

I said right in the beginning that I'm not talking about em games, which I don't play. Thanks for your spam.
But even if - as you say, it is a MODE, and not another GAME. em is a game MODE of the GAME DotA. But I repeat, my problem is not that I play em and thus my games are too short, my problem is that i play normal mode and lots of my games are too short because of leavers, which are being ignored by this database which was meant to do something against leavers - or am I wrong?




30min are 30min. To ensure that you are really playing a game of dota and not a leaver's game.


Oh, now I understand how that "no leavers" on the front page is meant- we ignore the games that are ruined by leavers, and only score those without too much leavers. Great.
So people will still have to stick to banlist, because most leaves occur in the first 30 minutes. Leave after (first, second, third) death.

I'm still looking forward to read some reasoning why it should be good to give the players an Arank-free leave within the first 30 minutes, I still don't see any.

[madazrael]

First of all. Yes, the 30-minutes-rule isnt a good solution, but i think it's the best for the moment...

As i understand dotarank, the main objective here is to mark people, which dont leave (finish the games, they play) and not to mark leavers. Keep that in mind for setting up rules.

So, a player should get a point if he finished a game. Well, that would be a bad solution, because the majority of the games end much earlier. Because they are already decided long before the throne/tree is down.
So there must be a timelimit when a game should be counted or not. And what should this timelimit be?

As you said, most leavers leave after their (first, second, third) death and that is in the first ~30 minutes. Also it is possible to defeat a team <30 minutes. But this is an exception, isnt it? If you have 50 games counted and this one is not, it just doesnt matter.

Dotarank is to count complete games and to judge players how many games they completed and not how many they started. If a game is ruined by leavers and everyone leaves, it wasnt a dotagame that should be counted. Again, it's not to ban or mark leavers! It's excactly the other way round!

(anyway to ban or mark leavers is just not effective because making a new account is done in less than 1 minute...)

Perhaps some time we will be able to play only with people that have rank 10 or higher. I doubt they will leave. And when they do, just finish the game, send a gamereport and their stats go down fast. That's the way it should work. There are still some problems and exceptions, but i think the dotarank-team will figure it out and will give us an acceptable solution.

Keep 30-minutes-rule, because i dont see any alternative! Do you?

[Gruufhai]

Thanks for your answer. I read it several times, but still my bad english might have kept me from understanding some parts.

Ok, I probably misunderstood the leavers-stayers part of Arank. I'm used to banlist, which tries to punish leavers, while Arank tries to recompense "stayers". I think I got it now.

But what does this have to do with a timelimit when a game can be scored?
What would it be if there was no time limit like those 30 minutes?
Everyone joining the game would get +1 points except for those who leave (5 minutes before the last ones I think).

And what's wrong about that? I really don't understand you guys.
Of course, everyone would have higher scores. No - everyone except those who leave more than 1 of 10 games they play.

Now it is - everyone has lower scores, those who leave have even lower scores, except those who destroy the game early enough to have it unrated, who get out for free.


Besides the basic arguing wether a limit is needed or not, 30 minutes seems to be totally arbitrary. Why not 20 minutes, or 15?

I think any time limit only serves those who dont get -10 points for leaving in this protected period of game. Of course, this only succeeds if they destroy the game and everyone else who might have running Arank leaves too.
But where is the good part, where is the desirable stuff that any time limit and especially a 30-minutes one accomplishes?

[TransHuman]

Nevertheless, should I finish such a game ?
If you finish a game alone, then you play longer than 30 minutes.

When you have a look in the gamereport you can read the following:

...
Game data accepted:
there is enough information about more, than 8 player(s);
more, than 0 player(s) finished the game;
game is longer, than 30 minutes;
...

I think, the game is counted, you get +1 Points an the leaver -10


Many games are not played until the end.
All opponents leave the game after destroying the 1.base tower and you are the only player in the game.
You can finish the game alone and the game is counted.

In both cases you can punish the leaver.

[Gruufhai]

I'm not sure if you understood what I said, since I did not talk about playing or finishing alone at all, while you seem to talk about playing or finishing alone only. This should clearly not be ranked or rated, no matter if you create a single player game or finish a multiplayer game of which everyone else has left.
And I did not talk about rules to allow such.

Rules that I have in mind are:

1) everyone gets +1 except those who left, they get -10
2) exception: if someone left in the <forfeit period>, he is no leaver and gets +1

forfeit period means that if all remaining players leave the game in x minutes (currently x = 5 I think), none of them is considered to be a leaver.

So, it's basically like it is now, simply without the 30-minutes-limit.

[TransHuman]

I am also not a friend of the 30-minutes-limit.

Games with a duration of less then 30 minutes will not be counted.

In the current situation there are two possibilities:
- leave the game (< 30 min) and no scoring will take place.
- finish the game (>30 min) and get a scored game

Spend a litle bit more time and you receive some points or leave the game and loose time and points.

In the moment ist is possible to handle like this, but is it good ?

I think it is not good for ranks, but you can show you are not a leaver and this is one goal for arank