Upcoming Competitive Section

[Sir Rogers]

Alright guys,

I think it would be nice to have a competitive section and I'd like to have some of your input. Mainly ideas about what it could contain and what you would like to see!

So for myself I'd like to see:
An Arank Competitive Team
Seasonal Tournaments (anything from 1v1 to 5v5)
(Maybe) A ladder of some sort? I'd like some input on this :-)

So definately a competitive team to get our name out in the scene and then different tournaments to accomodate the needs of all players. If there are enough interested people, why not have a 1v1 or 2v2 league? Because I know some people definately enjoy playing those kind of games.

And then some seasonal tournaments, maybe combined with a ladder for each category and then at the end of a season have the 16 best players (or teams) play in proper best out of one/three playoffs? That would be pretty sweet, but as I said I'd like some feedback on it. That's it from my part, let the brainstorming rally begin :-)

[Sirian]

mayb start with a team of dotarank gms who fw teams of dotarank challengers? and after the game evaluate if there are candidates for the dotarank team?
This could stimulate players to practise their teamplay or atleast teamup with friends they made on DR.
Or we could go for a DCE kind of testing game/vouching system to evaluate applications for the DR team and give challenger teams a teambased rank.
I wouldnt mind observing and evaluating games if this can implemented with the bot.

I dont feel much for 1v1 or 2v2 leagues, but mayb a team function (support/carry etc) ladder would be nice, this would probably be hard to code however so a gm or obs needs to do a little extra work.

[MonsieurEsclave]

Since we have some very good players out there in DotArank, I appreciate the idea of building a team which could compete in prestigious leagues.
And what about making more than one ? For instance DRa, DRb, etc.... And a competitive selection of players who could play in these teams, based on a ladder. That would be great indeed, so even players below the top 5 can participate.
AFAIC, I don't play 1v1 or 2v2, and it's the case of many other players, so maybe it would be just an extra, as they did for instance in Guild Wars, where they added a 1v1 ladder in the 3rd stand-alone (GW is merely a 8v8 game).

[Shabazza]

- 1v1 is stupid imo (either people play sh which is boring or one outpicks another one), 2v2 can be fun if you pick 1-2-1.
- concerning the competitive team: I'd play with you if it's not some half-assed attempt. A competent captain is important as well as mannered players. I know many clans at Pick-league at Dota-League and no team made it past DIV 4 without a good captain.

[marlborolight]

I had the same idea bout comp.,Ih wars some time ago,but no reaction at all !Totaly suport idea ,as i said in topic ''IH WARS'' we need few cpt-s and players in their teams,exmpl: player can sign if he wants to play with his cpt (me exmpl) so i have 10 aplications and i need to chose 4 of them ,so make at least 8 teams and tournament can begin ,need some scoring system 4 win ,lose,mby kills,asists,deaths(idc much bout that ,only w/l ratio)at the end we can have some hall of fame or smth like that.Balancing the teams also need to be good.We cant afford that 1 team have 5 best dr players ,and other teams mid skill players ,so need balance aswell!!At the end of competition,all players who were at tournament can vouch ,and chose the best players who will represent DR!As Moes said mby we can make more than 1 team (1st team DR (a) 2nd DR(b) etc)...

[Andersfizel]

Like your idea marl, but a team of only five players makes the team depenable that all are online at same time. For me playing is pretty spontaneous and i dont like being tied to play at exact hours cus my day changes from day to day week to week. Problem is we propably dont have enough players to have teams of more than five. Hope you see my point or i can try to be more accurate

peaze Dj_stu

[psf_kurt]

totally support! but............ how can you balance the teams? cuz im pretty sure 3 of the best players which we all know would stick together and be unbeateable ^^

[potmus]

I really love the idea of competitive ih. You could like start with doing it on one evening of the week. Maybe some option on the site where people can subscribe or something?
Would also be nice if those kind of games are played with Vent and such.

[Shabazza]

totally support! but............ how can you balance the teams? cuz im pretty sure 3 of the best players which we all know would stick together and be unbeateable ^^


the best players currently don't play because they don't like eurobattle.

[Flutschi]

the best players currently don't play because they don't like eurobattle.


wrong, i like eurobattle. :p



totally support! but............ how can you balance the teams? cuz im pretty sure 3 of the best players which we all know would stick together and be unbeateable ^^


3 uberpro's with 2 noobs = they have no chance.. teamfights 3vs5.. no way

@idea

Really nice. Totally would support it!
hope to see more :)

[marlborolight]

3 best players ,hm what is that ?! In this games only teamplay wins,best organise team,not a player?!I would like to hear who is the best at dr and dont like euobattle?!Imo best players at dr saufi & tyr ,but i allready said that we need balance,so 1 team cant have 5 high skill players and 2nd team mid skill players ,like in loby (ih games)when we make a balance to make sure that game will be fair.Kurt who will stick togather?If we are all agree that team is far more better than rest,we are simply make a deal with those players & xplain to them that they cant play at the same team (they can represent DR,but not at IH wars)Dj-stu i got ur point totaly,but if the tournament starts (exmpl) 15th june 22:00 u need to be there,or get replace 4 urself.

[Sir Rogers]

Alright let's make a few things clear here: The competitive team doesn't have to be balanced :-D
It will contain of the best players for the role and/or people that enjoy playing together at a competitive level.

About the tournaments. As with any tournaments there are always organizational hurdles to overcome. It would require a certain amount of people to sign up for them via the website. After a certain amount of people is reached I could write a script to balance the teams properly, that shouldn't be an issue.

As with any tournament if you don't show up you will be disqualified. However I think that it would be unfair to disqualify a whole team just because one member doesnt show up, so on the spot there will be the possibility for new people to join in the tournament by filling up the slot(s) in a tournament game.


Now I was thinking there are two options we have here:

1) All teams are balanced by a script and ensure the fairest matchups.
2) Teams would be balanced in the first round, but they system would allow you to chose up to 1-2 friends that you really want to play with and the system will allow that unless the combination of those 2-3 players in one team would heavily influence the flow of the games (i.e. Tyr, Saufi and ucw in one team).

Also important to consider:
Do you stay with the team that you play with in the first round or should the teams be rebalanced after every round?

[marlborolight]

Imo(same) team(s) stays after the 1st round,and need to be proper balanced(as u said no tyr saufi ucw = 1team),2nd- xmpl. u can be in same team with 2 friends and rest of players,well they can be chosen by cpts of the teams,like some sort of draft mby..

[Andersfizel]

Kool,
Defenentily same teams after round 1, so there something to work with, but maybe just make shorter competitions like 5 rounds, then make new teams another 5 rounds and so on..

[Sirian]

Its one of the reasons im not on dr that often, the second i joined a game with tyr and saufi ppl started whining about balance... ppl are too afraid of loosing and prefer whining over learning something. I learned most of the game playing with some friends agains better teams, looking at their strats and trying to ward/not get ganged is one of the basics of tournament play that most ppl on dotarank just cant learn or cant get used to. Also if u play a tournament as suggested above the "top" team wont be able to compete in other leagues and represent dotarank accordingly because it wont consist of the "top" of dotarank.
This might sound a bit pessimistic although im looking forward to some competitive play within DR ;)

[Sir Rogers]

Its one of the reasons im not on dr that often, the second i joined a game with tyr and saufi ppl started whining about balance... ppl are too afraid of loosing and prefer whining over learning something. I learned most of the game playing with some friends agains better teams, looking at their strats and trying to ward/not get ganged is one of the basics of tournament play that most ppl on dotarank just cant learn or cant get used to. Also if u play a tournament as suggested above the "top" team wont be able to compete in other leagues and represent dotarank accordingly because it wont consist of the "top" of dotarank.
This might sound a bit pessimistic although im looking forward to some competitive play within DR ;)


It sounds pessimistic because you look at it from a pathetic point of view. Reading your post almost made me delete it ... then I remember we don't have a dictatorship here and I got my act together just in time :-)

No seriously ... what the hell? Just in case that you missed it in the discussion, the competitive team has nothing to do with the weekly organised tournaments. Nothing. It will be a completely self-managed team as I already mentionned in a post above.

[J0su]

Competitive tournaments would be great, like poeple can make up their teams and sign in. Everyboy welcomed so we maybe can mix up Arank with other communitys like dce and dl teams, to proove that arank teams own em all :p. A kind of award would be also great like special icons for the winner(forum nicks).
Timely restricted till the next winner of the same tournament is determined.

[Fluffy]

the ideas sound really nice, especially the inhouse tournaments with some kind of random teams, hope we get some more than 4 teams to get some hard fight for the win:-p
also the idea of a competetive team would be nice for the 5-6 which will take place(not for me, no doubt :-) )but it will be great advertising if u beat some serious teams (with some training maybe possible:-p )
about 1v1 and 2v2 i dont like this modes at all, so it would be nice if u focus on the other parts :-p

regards
Fluffy

[Sirian]

It sounds pessimistic because you look at it from a pathetic point of view. Reading your post almost made me delete it ... then I remember we don't have a dictatorship here and I got my act together just in time :-)

No seriously ... what the hell? Just in case that you missed it in the discussion, the competitive team has nothing to do with the weekly organised tournaments. Nothing. It will be a completely self-managed team as I already mentionned in a post above.



Ah missed something there, thought the nr 1 from the ih tournaments would participate in other leagues :P
Mayb set a specific day of the week for these games? Would draw a lot more ppl to the channel anyways.

[gude_laune]

Hey follks,
I really like the idea about getting a competitive section. My opinion on the single topics:
Competitive Team:
Everybody who played some competitive games so far will agree with me that there is no better way to learn as many aspects of the game so fast. There are many good players out there who will be able to play way above their current skill level if they're eager to learn and listen. Some voice tool (vent) could help very much here because it's allways hard to both explain stuff in chat and play by yourself.
Tournaments:
Tournaments with players you know are huge fun. Besides getting to know each other personally you also get used to each others play so you can estimate their moves and adept. For building the teams I'd suggest that the community chose some captains and they pick the players out of a pool one by one.
Ladder:
I personally totally dislike this idea. The thing which makes dotarank special is that there is a friendly athmosphere and no direct competition. Getting some kind of scoring system will allways lead to players being annoyed by their teammates which is followed by flaming most of the time. It's also kind of impossible to measure the skill of a player or better how he did in this very game in any numbers due to the complexity of dota and the different roles of heros. I also agree with Sirian that unbalanced games aren't that bad because you can learn very much. And we don't play only in order to win, do we?
I'd rather face a good player and play really concentrated and maybe lose then play together with him for an easy win(it's not like stacked team never lose though).
so long

die gude laune in person

[potmus]

For building the teams I'd suggest that the community chose some captains and they pick the players out of a pool one by one.



What I was thinking. Excellent idea thus.

[psf_kurt]

For building the teams I'd suggest that the community chose some captains and they pick the players out of a pool one by one.
!support.

Besides getting to know each other personally you also get used to each others play so you can estimate their moves and adept.
thats true. i feel a conection with jue1z every time we lane =) it just goes really smooth

[Sir Rogers]

Hey follks,
I really like the idea about getting a competitive section. My opinion on the single topics:
Competitive Team:
Everybody who played some competitive games so far will agree with me that there is no better way to learn as many aspects of the game so fast. There are many good players out there who will be able to play way above their current skill level if they're eager to learn and listen. Some voice tool (vent) could help very much here because it's allways hard to both explain stuff in chat and play by yourself.
Tournaments:
Tournaments with players you know are huge fun. Besides getting to know each other personally you also get used to each others play so you can estimate their moves and adept. For building the teams I'd suggest that the community chose some captains and they pick the players out of a pool one by one.
Ladder:
I personally totally dislike this idea. The thing which makes dotarank special is that there is a friendly athmosphere and no direct competition. Getting some kind of scoring system will allways lead to players being annoyed by their teammates which is followed by flaming most of the time. It's also kind of impossible to measure the skill of a player or better how he did in this very game in any numbers due to the complexity of dota and the different roles of heros. I also agree with Sirian that unbalanced games aren't that bad because you can learn very much. And we don't play only in order to win, do we?
I'd rather face a good player and play really concentrated and maybe lose then play together with him for an easy win(it's not like stacked team never lose though).
so long

die gude laune in person


There are some very good points in this adorable post, thanks a lot for the input. On the point with the ladder, I was thinking of a ladder for chosen teams, with seasons instead of having a one-off tournament they could advance between the division and so forth, like on dota-league, but that's not the most important idea. I'm much more interested in our internal weekly tournaments, since it will create stronger bonds between the players, as you mentionned.

However there are some things that we will have to clarify, there are a few things that I don't like about chosing captains and the captains picking their players:
1) It will give opportunity for preferential treatment, which I am avoiding at all cost for anything I do for dotarank and the community.
There's not only the danger of preferential treatment, but adding to that new players will be frequently left out, so I don't think it's a good idea.
2) The teams will not be balanced enough. Though you might argue that most teams will be, I am saying that there will be strong and only mediocore teams. And although the small skill difference doesn't matter too much in normal games, it has a huge impact in competitive games.

Also, if everyone knows that the teams will be randomized every week, it's for the best. People will play with new faces, get to know other players that are maybe or maybe not newcomers to the community, I think it's a better way of handling the situation. What is possible though is that the captains are chosen beforehand and not taken into the randomization process.

So if you want to suggest that the captains are picked by the players from the pool of people in a given week then I don't see anything wrong with that. Now to the next topic: the pool of players for each given week. The time for the start of the tournament will be set and people will know whether they can or cannot play in a given week. Now there has to be a way for the organisational team to know who's taking part and who's not.

I think that a post on the forums where you can sign up on, or a page on the website would be the best solution. Although not as many people use the website, it's the best way to communicate if you can't make it anymore after you've signed up for a tournament and it gives us the possibility to find an emergency replacement.

I believe that's everything for now.


Regards,
Sir Rogers

[LéaB]

All that sounds great so far and I love to take part in this tournament thing. But please alter tournament days each week since i have to work every tuesday and wednesday night. I would be sad if you pick one of these days regularly for the tournament.

[Sir Rogers]

All that sounds great so far and I love to take part in this tournament thing. But please alter tournament days each week since i have to work every tuesday and wednesday night. I would be sad if you pick one of these days regularly for the tournament.


I was thinking of making it either Saturday or Sunday, since that's probably when most working people have the time. I'll put up a poll before we decide on a final date and that can be altered anyway.

[potmus]

I was thinking that if you play with the same team for some games you really get to know eachother which could result in very great games.

All though I get your point about potential preferential treatments, so probably it's the best to do as you suggested to start with.
Later on we can maybe, on a small scale do some funkier stuff.

[Phi]

Like everything about the idea except for any balance suggestions. Players afraid of loosing, feeding or being owned in general shouldn't ever go competetive. The weaker my team is (in relation to the other), the better I have to play and the better I will play, as simple as that. Plus, it's kind of a confidence boost if I manage to own them. :)

So don't whine, just win.

[Bovski]

Really like the idea about the captains, being chosen before hand and then the players being assigned at random atleast for the first few times...

this way all teams will probably get a captain who has an understanding of picking and everybody will get to know eachother a little more...

But really hope that there will be tournaments cuz it would really be fun... Sunday evening sounds okay, but maybe also on week days sometimes as i find i almost never have much sparetime in the weekends..

great initiative..!

[oa2000]

Well i like the idea of 2vs2 ladder, i got a good friend that i play the esl 2v2 ladder with and if the bots where moved back to regular bnet we would join for sure.

I allso like the idea about vent/ts and i would love to start using it more even in the normal dotarank games. I know lots of nice empty ts servers we could use if anyone wanna try that.

[Sirian]

If DR goes competitive it would be nice to improve teamplay and communication. I for myself thought i never needed something like ventrilo or teamspeak, but now i used it in a couple of games and tournaments I came to the conclusion that it improves my game. Mayb it is an idea to set up a ventrilo server somewhere for Dotarank?
Just an idea :)
-Sirian

[oa2000]

well there are alot of open channels like the allstars channel, vent.dota-allstars.com port: 3917 some times its full but we could make some use of it if anyone is up for it ingame.

[unsaufi-]

DR has a TS2 Server: 82.211.8.115:8773 (but no one uses it so far)

[oa2000]

one user now ;)