Mate Command?

[Knallgas]

Hello everyone,

lately i've played alot of DIV-Games and i noticed pretty soon, that you cant enjoy this bot with mates.
We have to try like 15 min to get together in a team, because .balance always splits us up.

I was thinking about a "Mate-command" which would look like this:

Imagine your on Blue-spot (1) and your mate is on brown (10).
It would be nice if blue could type: ".mate 10" and brown to confirm it: ".mate 1"

Balance shouldnt seperate us anymore.

If you think its too unfair to play against 5 mates, you could set a limit of 2-3 mates each team, but it sucks that you cant even enjoy fighting with another friend.

What do you think about it?

Greetings Knallgas

[Aravis]

What a fresh new idea!

[Pthirus_pubis]

well we had this discussion already, in safehigh/low thats probably np but imagine 2 20k exp players in league typing ".mate" if there isnt someone with smth like over 30k around u�ll never be able to balance.
On top of that mates are always stronger than random players, so it would throw off the balance system in 2 ways. I think this league just isnt the right one for mates there are other way better suited for teams (in the first place if u are 5) 2 mates might work, but in many cases anything above is impossible, it just doesnt rly work with the whole league-system

[hans2]

a mates command would break balance
who wants play full stacked games?
atm gm can swap players within limits so mostly mates can play in team when its possible to balance that

[Knallgas]

Thats exactly why i said: There could be limit of 2 mates, otherwise it would be unfair.

2 Mates in a team is quite fair.

Plus, i have seen many players who leave right when the game started, because they were mates but in different teams---> they leave--> everyones pissed.

[Pthirus_pubis]

well im usually pissed in this case, because people dont get that div isnt the right place for teams, and ruin everyones game just cause they wanna play together, the balance and exp system (wich is kind of the heart of div) gets pwnd by a mates command, we had a case, where 2 mates with high exp (a sum of over 30k) simply couldnt be balanced anymore. In league in the first place its quite possible, that there are 1-2 palyers with 5-8 times the average exp of the rest. even without mates its already hard to balance smth like this, in a way that a balanced game can be played. (a player with 30k isnt 6 times as good as someone with 5k etc) if u�d have to include a "matesbonus" and the reduced posibilities cause of mates the result would be incredibly complicated and games would get a lot more imbalanced. Its way easier to win a game if u got at least 1 person that plays in team with u on a level mates usually do.
As there arent that many teams at this point, the gm method has to do the trick. With a mate command teams would increase and fuck up the entire system even more (imagine 3 2 man teams in a game ...)

[hans2]

i was thinking to add a .mate command but I cant find a way to make it fair and easy

[Knallgas]

Then just set a limit for 2 x 2 mates each round, while both mate-pairs are in different teams...

[Pthirus_pubis]

well the only way to make it fair is to put stronger players in the opposing team, lets say
so that the team without the team go a stacked win chance about 55% or smth, that of course would increase the problem when 2 high exp mates are joining, a exp bonus is a bit complicated and not quite the best way. Then ud have to collect some game data in wich the mate command was used to see how the win ratio is and then adjust the %age. Only way i can think of, and this would probably help in safelow and safehigh the most, cant rly think of a good solution for leage as the players exp are in a far greater range

[SouwlEye]

well we had this discussion already, in safehigh/low thats probably np but imagine 2 20k exp players in league typing ".mate" if there isnt someone with smth like over 30k around u�ll never be able to balance.
On top of that mates are always stronger than random players, so it would throw off the balance system in 2 ways. I think this league just isnt the right one for mates there are other way better suited for teams (in the first place if u are 5) 2 mates might work, but in many cases anything above is impossible, it just doesnt rly work with the whole league-system

First of all, credit to the author for bringing this up, it's an issue that should have been addressed long ago.
Many of my mates, abandoned div for the very reason they couldnt play here with their mate(s) without ending up on different teams.

If you could play div and play with a single friend you'd attract such a bigger playerpool. I for instance dont like playing dota at all, if not with a mate, because I want more of a dota game than good stats and a win. I want an ingame buddy whom I can have fun with and enjoy the game and actually talk with.

I think stacking should be limited to 1+1 ( you and your friend ) too avoid grave imbalance. If another couple joins they should be automatically transfered to the opposite team of the first bud-stack. Because as someone stated earlier, mates have something div doesnt have, and that's teamplay - too many mates on one team would create too much imbalance.

I dont see the problem in two 20k exp-players linking/friending each other over two 5 k exp-players, after all you can only measure skill in points to some extent, that brings me to another point, why not balance teams on other factors instead of mere points? for instance, winrate? or a combination of winrate and points?
if the current balance system based on points is kept, and you introduce this bud-linking command. The top ranked players obviously shouldnt link with each other as that would delay the start of that game to an eternity. In other words - common sense.

[Pthirus_pubis]

I dont see the problem in two 20k exp-players linking/friending each other over two 5 k exp-players, after all you can only measure skill in points to some extent, that brings me to another point, why not balance teams on other factors instead of mere points? for instance, winrate? or a combination of winrate and points?
if the current balance system based on points is kept, and you introduce this bud-linking command. The top ranked players obviously shouldnt link with each other as that would delay the start of that game to an eternity. In other words - common sense.

thats actually how it works its based on exp and win ratio, and some botupdates ago (if i remember right) the win ratio got even more important in the balance system (thats what the expected exp in the (...) after the normal exp is for after all) but still we had the problem that there were 2 high exp players that wanted to play together. its not smth i think could happen but actually did happen. and the balance and exp system is as accurate as it will get i guess, u�ll never be able to measuer skill with mere numbers to 100% and this system has been worked on a lot. but if ud say to only balance by win ratio then u can forget about the whole exp system div is based on.

im not against the mate command by the way, but i think u have to try a few games to adjust the balance system, noone knows yet how mates influence the win ratio of games, so hans will have to make a guess
(when he makes a mate command) about the win ratio, and then collect enough game data to get numbers that match the changed win ratio in the balance system. But since there are mates anyway, its something that has to be done

i was thinking to add a .mate command but I cant find a way to make it fair and easy

would be nice if u told us where exactly u see the problems in making it fair and easy, maybe someone got some good ideas

[hans2]

usually a gm can manual swap player to let mates play together
so its not real a big problem
if 2 mates cant play together then its a balance issue which cant be fixed in a simple way
i do think that stacked games will give very bad experience for both teams
who wants to be owned by a stacked team?

[Knallgas]

Why do you guys all think that 2 mates can make ALL the difference?

Its obviously a small advantage, but if there's no teamplay in the rest of the team 2 mates can do nothing.

I admit that 3+ mates would be unfair, but only 2?


PS: A game yesterday:

Game started.

Yellow: .end
Rest: why?
Yellow: my mate in other team, end it.
Rest: *flame*
Yellow: end or feed
Rest: *Pissed*

Game ends.

And thats not even seldom.

[hans2]

Why do you guys all think that 2 mates can make ALL the difference?

Its obviously a small advantage, but if there's no teamplay in the rest of the team 2 mates can do nothing.

I admit that 3+ mates would be unfair, but only 2?


PS: A game yesterday:

Game started.

Yellow: .end
Rest: why?
Yellow: my mate in other team, end it.
Rest: *flame*
Yellow: end or feed
Rest: *Pissed*

Game ends.

And thats not even seldom.

usually a gm can manual swap player to let mates play together

[Knallgas]

Not really.
Gm's often dont know how it works or they are just too lazy to swap.
They prefer to start right after balance.

[Pthirus_pubis]

Not really.
Gm's often dont know how it works or they are just too lazy to swap.
They prefer to start right after balance.

as gm i often have the problem, that once the game is full, there is so much spamming, u cant read any messages, in the first place that happens, when the gm joins late, or the gm simply switches etc. often i just look tv and w8 for the game to be full and if the start message shows i start it. There is are so many messages that u cant expect a gm to read everything. Even if u saw someone typed smth about a mate, try to find that in all the spamming (imagine many players joining getting kicked, upgraded etc) and the second problem is the balance issue, so i think the swapping method cant be compared to a working mate command. Even if u swap them together, sometimes before u start a new player joins and everything gets balanced over again

[Knallgas]

Cant you at least test it? And check if it is really THAT unbalanced?

A couple of days wouldnt be a problem, would it?

[SouwlEye]

usually a gm can manual swap player to let mates play together
so its not real a big problem
if 2 mates cant play together then its a balance issue which cant be fixed in a simple way
i do think that stacked games will give very bad experience for both teams
who wants to be owned by a stacked team?

You're somewhat contradicting yourself here, hans.
There is no difference between playing with a friend through a bud-linking command or simply having the gm swap you both same team. The final result will still be a (stack) vs randoms. And 2 mates same team aint really a massive stack of gg imbalance. I figure it happens alot of times anyway.

The problem as I see it, is the ignorance displayed by many gameadmins & the inability to speak decent english... Too many times i've played on seperate teams with one of my mates because the game refused to swap us same team or simply didnt understand it.

As one of the other posters also stated, missing a friend request in the lobby is also possible because it's often time spammed, by the bot as well as the users.

[hans2]

added .lock in 1.224

[Knallgas]

A question depending the 20% EXP penalty.... How does it exactly work?